Caleb Podcast
Welcome to Caleb Podcast, where we dive deep into the stories and perspectives that challenge conventional religious thought. Join me, Caleb Parker, your host and fellow seeker, as we embark on a journey to explore spirituality, faith, and humanity from a refreshingly open-minded perspective.
In each episode, I sit down with guests from diverse backgrounds and walks of life. From artists to activists, scientists to philosophers, we engage in candid conversations that transcend the boundaries of traditional Christian discourse. Together, we unravel the complexities of belief, doubt, and the human experience in the context of modern society.
Whether you identify as a devout believer, a skeptic, or something in between, Unhinged Christian offers a space for exploration and discovery. No topic is off-limits as we challenge assumptions, confront taboos, and embrace the richness of our shared humanity.
Join us as we navigate the intersections of faith, doubt, and everything in between. Tune in to Unhinged Christian and open your mind to a new dimension of spiritual inquiry.
Caleb Podcast
043: A Candid Conversation on Modern Christianity. With Lawrence Williams
Two worship leaders sit down for an unfiltered conversation about authenticity in ministry that challenges how we approach faith communities today. What begins as casual studio banter evolves into a profound discussion about the tension between religious performance and genuine spiritual transformation.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when they explore how churches often focus on external appearances rather than heart change. "Only in the church have I received sit-down notices based not on theological differences, but on external habits," one leader shares, reflecting on early ministry experiences where his jewelry and appearance became targets for criticism. This leads to a powerful examination of how welcoming churches truly are to broken people seeking connection with God.
They tackle the paralysis of perfectionism in ministry, with one leader confessing that his desire to launch the "perfect" podcast delayed his start by nearly a year. His friend's "just do it" approach – starting simply and improving consistently – proved far more effective. This philosophy extends beyond content creation into spiritual development: waiting for perfect conditions often means never beginning at all.
One of the most thought-provoking segments explores God's jealousy as a positive attribute. "God is so jealous for relationship with us that He'll tear down any idol we create," they observe, reframing spiritual challenges as evidence of God actively removing barriers between Himself and His people. This perspective offers hope to listeners struggling with recurring issues in their spiritual journey.
The leaders candidly distinguish between true accountability (walking alongside someone through struggles) and toxic exposure (publicly highlighting failures without offering restoration). Through vulnerable stories and biblical insights, they paint a vision for churches that embrace people exactly as they are while providing the resources, relationships, and truth needed for authentic transformation.
Whether you're a worship leader seeking refreshment, someone hurt by religious communities, or simply curious about authentic Christianity, this conversation offers both challenge and hope. Join us for a raw, unscripted dialogue that might just change how you think about faith, community, and personal transformation.
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Go up, go up, go up, go up, go. Hey, go up, go up, go up, go up. We've got the same problem Ethan does, because I'm getting close to how it was.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, Ethan's will be loud and then I'll turn it down. He's like go up, go up, and then it'll be about where it was.
Speaker 1:And he's like that's great Interesting. That's probably what happens at church too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's because people got to get used to it or something. Yeah, this morning the sound was bad for me, I don't really know why. Like in the in-ear monitors, I just couldn't get it right. I couldn't get the right levels.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that happens. Very weird, unexplainable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, normally it's spot on, but every so often today I could not hear the click, even when I had them turn it up. I just couldn't keep track of it.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure I probably have hearing damage because of how loud I would have the click when I would play there, and then I would also have the drums blasting as well. Yeah. So it's just like I remember that they told me that I had to turn my click down because it was picking up in my in-ears to the singer's mic, exactly, yeah, there'll be some people like that.
Speaker 1:I have all of the music down. I have click a little bit of the track and vocals in my ear. A little bit of the track and vocals in my ear. So when every time a guitar player comes up to me and be like dang man, I'm so sorry for messing up. Did you hear me mess up? I'll be like I you did fine do you?
Speaker 2:do you have any instruments that are just on zero?
Speaker 1:all of them okay, all of them um if, if I turn up an instrument, it's the piano yeah or who are, you know, keys one, whichever one that's what I'll have.
Speaker 2:I'll usually have keys drums and click yep and that was about it.
Speaker 1:I'd sometimes try to have drums, but of course it always depends on who's drumming it always depends on, depends on. So I was when I lost click during the set this morning, or during the first set this morning. I lost click um, and so I was just going with the drums yeah but one of the hits were off and so that really screwed me up, cause I'm like I don't, and it was like one of those transition points where we're going into the next part of the song, so it was crazy. Oh, that's so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't know where, I didn't know where that was coming from, so I just muted that channel. It must be that, mike.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sounds so much more crisp. Yes, all right, kelly, what you want to talk about first.
Speaker 2:What's going on with the pink um, pink laptop well, first of all, I've had that for years now and because I'm colorblind, I thought it was was gold.
Speaker 1:Oh, I could see that.
Speaker 2:Technically it's rose gold and. I can't see the pink. So when people always ask me, like, what's with the pink laptop?
Speaker 1:I'm like man. I you thought it was rose gold.
Speaker 2:I haven't even known that it was pink, so I'll just be at the cafe with it and with this pink laptop, and I never knew it, so I don't know how many people have judged me throughout the years.
Speaker 1:I wasn't judging at all, I just thought it was an interesting choice I feel like it was a blue laptop.
Speaker 2:Would you have asked the same question?
Speaker 1:I would have asked that because I've never seen a blue mac before. That's number one, number two, um. I feel like max. This is gonna sound stupid, but when I think of max like the laptop, I don't think like creative or creator.
Speaker 2:Um how dare you?
Speaker 1:I know the thing is when, for the mac desktop, when I look at one of those, I automatically think creator, like whoever's doing this, editing videos, they're a podcaster, like they're somebody like that. But when I see a laptop, I just automatically think somebody's checking emails, somebody's writing up documents. You know, somebody just has it for general use because it came with their phone.
Speaker 2:Well, it didn't come with a phone, but I'll say that it isn't the best for editing videos. It does work, though with how much RAM it has because, I think it's only got eight gigs when you want 16. But I'm also just editing some simple conversation. It's not like some art project, music video or something like that.
Speaker 1:Got you.
Speaker 2:So I make it work.
Speaker 1:How long do you think it takes you to edit your videos?
Speaker 2:Depends on how long the episode is. If it's like an hour long, it might take two or three hours, because I go through and watch the whole thing and then when you're talking, I'll cut out my footage of me so it just shows you and once I'm talking, so it flips back and forth I see which software do you use.
Speaker 2:Then cap cut, cap cut okay, and then, for if it's a really long episode, say two hours or two and a half I'll just pick certain sections of like 30 minutes and then have it just like side by side. Yeah, because I don't feel like going through the whole thing and editing I don't think you really need to no, no, not coming.
Speaker 1:Okay, what you want to talk about today?
Speaker 2:you're the one that wanted to come on. I thought you had all the yes, I had all the ideas I had all the all of the ideas.
Speaker 1:First of all, I want to say I didn't tell you this yesterday because I didn't want you to get to be here. I'm just playing. That's a joke that we, we set up on my podcast. Pastor david was on my podcast the other day and he had he had mentioned something like that. It's like we say nice things about people when they die, but we always scared, always scared to say it while they're here, and his joke was he had asked them why do you feel so comfortable saying the nice things when they die but you don't say nice things when they're alive? And the person's response is usually because I didn't want them to get the big head, and that's so us. That's so us Like now, I didn't want you to get the big head yesterday when we had breakfast, but I wanted to tell you that this, first of all, is incredible. Like what you're doing with your podcast, what you're doing with your platform is incredible and it has literally inspired me to do what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:We talked, probably since we've known each other, about podcasting and both doing what we're doing in our different realms and for the most part, the whole entire time, I've been trying to get everything right, trying to get everything that I thought needed to be in place in order to launch, only to then get everything in place that I think need to be in place in order to launch, and then launch. And then, next thing, you know, I need to change everything because nothing works the way that it should have. But through that process, right me, getting my podcast off the ground was literally an added year. It was almost 12 months of added time, whereas you were just like I think I want to start a podcast. So boom.
Speaker 1:And then I remember asking you I was like what do you set up? Do you do any post edits? Do you have this, do you have that? And you're like, no, I just post. And I think that that's incredible. So that has definitely been a catalyst, at least for me, in lighting the fire, keeping the fire up under my feet, to just go with it, just go with it. And as I've done that, what I've realized is all of the stuff that I was trying to get into place really don't work for what I'm doing anyway. And then, actually doing it, I've been able to learn what does work for me, what do I like, what do I not like what is the audience looking for? What are they not looking for? Things of that sort. But I've been able to really do it in the way that I really wanted to do it once I got started.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it it took, you know, a part of me just getting rid of what my vision was for it in terms of visuals, in terms of aesthetics.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And just focusing squarely on the content. Um, because all of the visuals and aesthetics and things of that sort have literally just worked itself out.
Speaker 2:Every episode is literally one percent better than the last, because I've learned something new yeah, that's what all the podcasters and youtubers that I watch and listen to would always say is just like start and it will get better because you'll start seeing what you're creating and be like. How can I make this better?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, like the thumbnails.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Uh, even I used to not do like the flipping back and forth between people talking. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to start taking the time, cause I like the way that looks better and so, yeah, it's just one of those things that you just consistently get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Instead of just trying to have it be perfect from the get go.
Speaker 1:Right and be okay with it. For me I've set up a requirement Sundays is my day where I fully package all of my content that I want to post for that week. So on Monday I am not working on anything that is scheduled to be posted on Friday. I do all my posting on Fridays. I'm not working on anything that's scheduled to be posted on Friday.
Speaker 1:It's already scheduled like, hands off of it, because I get to a point where I was just like you know a little bit more, a little bit more, let me see what I can do different. Let me see what I can do different. Let me see what I can do different. But what that has also done is, in the meantime I really focus with every episode, right, because I'm watching it, I'm watching it, I'm listening to it, I've played it back two or three times, and so I can see areas where I can improve or maybe something that I can do a little bit different. And then I'm able to work that into the editing process or the post-editing process to really get closer to what I'm ideally envisioning. And I've kept the old episodes, I've kept the old content, and I think that has been huge too, because then I can see the progression.
Speaker 1:So but yeah, that's that's. That's a tangent, but I wanted to thank you for that because you've been a huge catalyst for that, you and my mom both, um, who was just like, just go for it just go for it.
Speaker 1:And and what I've learned is, it's not even at least for what I'm doing. I can't speak for everything, but at least for what I'm doing. I believe that it is blessed by God and I am just seeing the fruits of that from people who comment who say this really helped me, this really touched me, or who comment or DM and they say I want more information upon this right. That means they're intrigued. They're intrigued enough to want to study the word of God, to really want to have those kinds of God, to really want to have those kind of biblical conversations in biblical communities. So that's a huge deal, but you're already doing that and to me it's not only needed but it's helpful and encouraging to people out there like me who have a gift. God is calling to use that gift, but we are scared of taking that next step. Here it is. You took the step after step after step after step.
Speaker 2:And your podcast focuses more on talking with musicians and worship leaders, specifically. Right, right so.
Speaker 1:I'm a worship leader, and so my podcast really centers on being a well, a creative well for worship leaders and creatives, that is so, creatives anybody who is doing anything Christian related in the Christian space, because I think we all need to be poured into. I like to put it like this, and since this is a Christian space, I can use this term I believe that my assignment right now is to the Levites. My assignment right now is to serve those who are serving, and I believe that God has equipped me to be able to do that, and so my podcast from the devotionals every week that drop to upcoming podcast segments like Mic Drop Moments I told you about that yesterday where I'm explaining what Scripture, how Scripture defines our worship and what our worship should look like based on Scripture. New podcast segment also coming out flip that verse. So I'm taking verses or passages of scripture that we misquote continuously.
Speaker 2:Are they going to be read in context? They are.
Speaker 1:That part they are going to be read in context. I am not about the eisegesis of the text, which is applying your subjective reality to biblical text, but I'm about the exegesis of the text which is putting that text in context. And I like to be in the space. So when I'm reading it, you know the Bible is really no different than that, although I think it's more important than when I'm reading some other fiction story. Right, I like to put myself in the place of the character. I want to see through my eyes what the character is, seeing through their eyes and experiencing through their eyes. So that, and just all of the legal studies degree or minor that I have, that I didn't use to go to law school that teaches you how to dig into text and read over every word as if it's important, because in the Bible it is and figure out exactly what's going on. So I'm excited about it. So, yeah, those, those, those segments. As long as the devotionals that have been going great, started that back in May, officially launched in in May the devotional.
Speaker 1:The devotional section, the devotional section, yep and the mic drop moments for the verses soon to come at the end of August. But yeah, it's been going really, really great. Over 50,000 eyeballs have seen content that I put out and I expect it and I would have been perfectly fine with 500.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what everybody says. It's easy to say that you would have been perfectly fine with 500. Yeah, that's what everybody says. It's easy to say that you would have been fine with 500 when you're getting like 5,000 views or 50,000.
Speaker 1:Is this?
Speaker 2:on TikTok or YouTube.
Speaker 1:Through all platforms. So TikTok and YouTube are the biggest platforms right now, at least for the show.
Speaker 2:Dude, we could be honorary members of gen z because we're popular on tiktok we could be.
Speaker 1:We could be. I thought about that and what's also interesting and I think this is probably a good point for us to talk about today the engagement of uh gen z men, um on tiktok is ridiculous. On youtube is like 50 50 between women and men who watch the show, but on tiktok over 70 percent of viewers, um for my videos are men between the ages of 18 and 35, between the ages of 18 and 35.
Speaker 2:Oh I think that camera just shut off.
Speaker 1:Oh, why does it do that?
Speaker 2:I don't know. The battery might have been low or something. You got to get you a dummy battery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we'll just have this one just be audio. Either way, it's up to you. No, we got to have it be video because I'm going to repost it, Okay is there?
Speaker 2:Well, I can pause.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can pause, I can like figure it out. And then you can edit it and post edit.
Speaker 2:I just need to know. Never mind, I don't need to know. Why is it just done? I don't know why I did that. I charged it before you got here and everything. That iced tea show looked good. I could just move this one so that we're both in the shop.
Speaker 1:The phone it's up to you, it's your podcast, Because this one's going to have to charge. Oh, it's one of those. Well, I guess it can run on a dummy battery right with it plugged in. Can it record?
Speaker 2:like that yeah, it can record when it's plugged in.
Speaker 1:It must have been, that's so weird to charge it for like an hour. An hour. Is it shooting in 4K? No, oh, I don't do 4K because it's way too long to upload.
Speaker 2:That's true, it's a huge file okay, so we'll have a little bit of back and forth, and then I mean, how long do you think this episode's gonna be?
Speaker 1:I need to be back by four, so yeah, so it's not gonna be too long.
Speaker 2:Okay, where were we?
Speaker 1:um.
Speaker 1:We were with uh gen z men yes tapping in, uh, on tiktok, and I think that's that's extremely interesting, but it's for us, for all, all people what I'm finding is that generally, christians just in general, and curious minds in general because there have been people who are literally tuning into the show, literally watching the clips they are saving and reposting it who are atheists One guy reached out doesn't believe in God.
Speaker 1:He left a comment on TikTok about. I posted a clip about the peace of God or something like that, and he kind of pushed back against. He didn't kind of. He definitely pushed back against that and said you know, the peace of God doesn't come with God. I'm an atheist and I have peace in my life and things of that sort. But the fact that he feels, first of all, welcome and accepted to me is important, yeah, and he feels okay to be able to do that. And then, secondly, the fact that he's not the only one who has reached out and said I don't believe in God. But I'm reposting this because I like the way that you put that or I like what you said.
Speaker 2:So I mean I want saying are we preaching the gospel as it's intended to be? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a huge debate, right Because? We know that when you preach the gospel, you're going to get persecuted, right. So there are going to be people who dislike you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what I found, at least in my walk with Christ, is I've been preaching and singing since I was 16 years old. Whoa, that's 15 years now. What I have learned is that it is actually the church that can be the most disinviting place for spiritual development, and that's counterintuitive, because the church is supposed to be the central place for spiritual development, and here's what I mean by that. Only in the church have I ever received no's and sit-down notices and disinventations based not on a theological difference, but based on an external habit. Only in the church do I get that.
Speaker 1:I remember when I first started singing, I had a ring on this hand. I had a ring on this hand, I had a watch, I had a bracelet and I had a cross around my neck. You know how many people came up to me and was like you need to lose some of that jewelry. Not the Lord is with you or not. The Lord ain't with you, so please don't sing again. It had nothing to do with the theological basis of what I was singing or what I was up there leading in. It had nothing to do with the anointing. It had nothing to do. It had everything for them to do with jewelry. And then from the jewelry, it was my hair. Your hair is too long. Guys are not supposed to have that kind of long hair, so maybe you should cut that because that's distracting. You mean, my hair is keeping you from the Lord. Yeah, so it's like.
Speaker 1:But I say that to say not to beat up upon the church or anything like that, obviously because I believe that I exist right now to serve the church, but I say that to say in the world. Anytime I wanted to do things that were destructive to me my body, my health, my spirit. The world encouraged it and they then gave me the world. They gave me the tools in order to continue to do things that was destructive to me, in order to continue to do things that was destructive to me, and I wish, in church and religious spaces, we did the 180.
Speaker 1:If you want to come in with your hat to the back, if you want to come in with your pants sagging, if you want to come in with your stripper outfit, if you want to come in with your bad credit, your bad attitude, if you want to come in with your sick or your broken heart, I want you to be honest about it. I want you to be open about it, and I wish the church would say you know what. We are here to cover you, we are here to protect you. You ain't got it all together, neither do we.
Speaker 2:That's fair, but after attending church and following the Lord, do you think that those people will change or should change? Like what if it's a year or two down the line and they're still showing up in the stripper outfit or whatever it is they came in with Like there's got to be some fruit, Because I'm all for show up as you are, but don't stay that way.
Speaker 1:Right, no, no, I agree with that and that should come from hearing the word. Right Because.
Speaker 2:I see you don't really have a bunch of jewelry on no, even when you.
Speaker 1:But it has nothing to do with the theological stance. Now it's more so because I just don't like to wear a lot of jewelry.
Speaker 2:Right, but do you think that over the course of time, like hearing the Word and following Christ? Maybe it was like, hey, maybe I should just kind of give this up because I don't really need it it is a little bit flashy. You don't think so.
Speaker 1:No, I do believe in where you're going With my specific instance. There's nothing in the Bible that preaches for or against men wearing jewelry.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not saying that there's anything against men wearing jewelry. No, I'm not saying that there's anything against men wearing jewelry. I just think that sometimes it can come off as flashy for anybody, right?
Speaker 1:So that is, for me, what I've learned to avoid Anything that's very flashy or anything that can be distracting to the people, obviously that I'm trying to lead in worship. Yeah, that can be distracting to the people, obviously that I'm trying to lead in worship. So on the basis of that, that, I figured, well, maybe I can use less jewelry. And then it became more so for me, just like, well, I'm getting older and I don't want all those rings on my finger, I don't want a whole lot of stuff on me, especially when it get hot. That's just not me Now. If that's you know. If that's you, that's you. But for get hot, that's just not me Now, if that's you, that's you. But for me at least. But I will say to your point yes, you go to church, you come as you are, but you should not leave the way you came. That a relationship with God, and that's the important thing relationship.
Speaker 1:God is not just after your habits, he's not after the things that you show other people but, God is after your heart and it's after a genuine heart change that your habits then start to change, and what we do in the church because we cannot see your heart but we can see your habits. That's what we tend to focus on, and I mean the Big C Church. We tend to focus on what your habits are. So you can sing for us because I don't know you live in an adultery. But you can't sing for us because I do know and I saw on your Facebook you part of the LGBTQ plus community.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I would say that is a a bigger problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'll cut. You'll cut me my check, even though I don't take care of my kids, uh-oh. But you refuse to invite me out if I openly disagree with the theological stance of the church. Come on now. Come on.
Speaker 1:So I think again, we tend to focus because we can't see your heart. We tend to focus on habits, but to your point, god will change your habits, but it first starts with a personal relationship with Christ. That changes your heart, and then you won't have a desire to do. You would desire the things of God, you would desire a relationship with God and then anything that gets in the way of that relationship between you and God, those are the things that you would start not to desire, and to me that's important.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes you still do desire them. But oh 100%. You just know that they're wrong now and it's just like kind of a struggle.
Speaker 1:The one. I think I love God, obviously for many reasons. There's one thing about God that sometimes I just don't like. If I can be honest, I can be fully open and transparent and honest. God is a jealous God, and so I like the fact that God would ride for me. You mess with me his son, god, go ride for me.
Speaker 1:What I don't like is that God is a jealous God. So then, anything that I put between God and I, any house that I build that tries to keep me from the eyes of God, just like God would ride for me against somebody else, god would ride for me against myself. He will tear down the statues that you build. He'll get rid of the houses and the boards that you try to put up between you and God. God is just that jealous. When we sing the song, he is jealous for me. It's not just, at least for me. I'm not just grateful about the fact that he will leave the 99 and come after me, but I'm grateful that I'll be right there with the rest of the 99 watching TV distracted. I'll be with the 99 doing my own thing, and God is so jealous of that that he's willing to chastise me and say no, no, no, no and, if need be, he's willing to remove whatever it is that I try to put between Him and I, and I love that about God.
Speaker 2:I try to put between him and I, and I love that. About God. Yeah, I was just going to say if God's the creator of all things and he knows where we are most satisfied at and that's with him, so the jealousy thing might not be so bad in this case.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. It has definitely worked out, because I can tell you that there are some opportunities, there's some doors, there's some relationships that I would have walked right in because it felt good in the moment and I thought it was good. But then that opportunity, that relationship, that door became my idol. And how many times have God removed those idols out of my life? And how many times have God removed those idols out of my life? I realized the past maybe three to four years, maybe even five years this season of my life has all been about idols and we don't think that idols are what we create. We usually think that idols is the golden calf.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We think that idols is the thing that I call God. That is not God, but idols to God is simply anything that you put next to him or above him. That's your idol. So not only can your car be your idol, but your own ambition can be your idol. Your own thought process can be your idol. But your own ambition can be your idol. Your own thought process can be your idol when you are confident in your ability to provide for your family more than you trust God's provision for your family. That's an idol, and God will show you who's God.
Speaker 1:First he will warn you. First comes a warning and then comes destruction, comes a reconciliation moment or an opportunity for reconciliation, like. You've got to learn how to take that. But anyways, I don't know how we got up on this topic, but this season has been a season of idols for me. Where God has been getting rid of those. So yes, through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Where God has been getting rid of those. So yes, through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, your heart will be exposed. You cannot look at a holy God and not see the unholiness and unworthiness in yourself, right, and so that will be exposed. And as you build your relationship with God. He will change your habits, but it is not up to the church to change your habits. So, yes, if you showing up to church a year later in your stripper outfit, it is what it is. The question that I have is have you built your relationship with God? Now, I can know the fruits of that because I can clearly see that.
Speaker 2:But you know there was actually one do you think that after time the church should hold people accountable? A little bit with that I think, like hey, we noticed that you know, you showed up with this drug problem and a year later you still got this drug problem. So what's going on here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think there has to be a community of people to walk alongside and actually do life with people. There was one before I touch on that. There was one girl back in Detroit, born and raised in Detroit. So there was one lady back in Detroit and she was a prostitute. She came into the church, she got saved. And she got saved in the same outfit that she was wearing out up on the street and she was coming to church week after week, I mean Sunday after Sunday.
Speaker 1:She was coming to church and all of a sudden, you know, some time went by and everybody like, well, why is she still wearing her prostitute, like the Lord ain't doing nothing in her life? Well, it literally just took somebody walking her to the side and asking her hey, what's going on, why you still got your prostitute outfit. And you know what she said. She said these are all the clothes I got. It wasn't that she didn't want to change. She said this is all I got. And then, of course you know, we went out and bought her some clothes and then she never wore that prostitute outfit again. So it's just like you know, when you do life with people, when you have a community of people that you're doing life with. They can see that.
Speaker 1:And then I think the church's responsibility is to provide for those hands and feet needs of people and give them that opportunity, give them that resource, and then they get out of that. Then there's a change, then you see the shift. But to stand back and say, oh, you walked in here and you was on Coke last year, but you're still on Coke now, okay, well, addiction takes a long time. Number one and number two are we providing the resources that they need in order to be better? And maybe that resource is just, you know, a friend, a phone call, right? Maybe it's just you stopping by. But whatever it is, are we doing what is feasible, what's in our ability to do, or not? And if the answer is not, then you go ahead at drug problem. So sorry to tell you, but you go ahead at drug problem because you're not around people who really care about your salvation Fair.
Speaker 1:That's what it boils down to who really care about your salvation?
Speaker 2:All right, where were we before I asked that question? You have no idea.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, no idea.
Speaker 2:You have no idea, oh no.
Speaker 1:No, no idea. But yeah, we were talking about people being changed by Jesus and having a heart for change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then that's when I asked do you think churches should take accountability in that sense? Oh, accountability.
Speaker 1:Churches should hold you accountable. We should hold each other accountable. There's not only common sense to back that up, but there's Bible to back up the church. Holding each other accountable.
Speaker 1:That's very important, and if you are not a part of a church and I mean the big C church, for that matter too, but if you're not part of a local church that is willing to hold you accountable, then I'm questioning your spiritual walk, because if you were perfect, if you never do anything wrong, if you never mess up, if you never have a bad thought, if you never have a slip and fall, then you got to be Jesus.
Speaker 1:So I'm trying to figure out why Jesus at one of these churches and nobody told me you must be the Messiah, if you ain't never fallen short of the glory and if you don't have people around you who are willing to hold you accountable not talk about you, not dog you out, but to just hold you accountable then I really question your spiritual walk. To that point, though, we got a lot of people who go to church, and there is a fear, really, with the people that you go to church with, because the Big C Church we don't like to hold each other accountable, but we like to point out each other's flaws and mistakes. That makes us look better. Makes us look better. I'm not going to talk about the fact that I lied when I can easily talk about the fact that some pastor in North Carolina got caught with a 13-year-old girl. That's the juiciest story.
Speaker 2:I'm not laughing at the story. I'm just laughing at the way you're telling it.
Speaker 1:Because that's how it is If we spoke plain English with each other sometimes. Because that's how it is If we spoke plain English with each other sometimes I don't speak plain English.
Speaker 1:I speak Ebonics, but you know what I mean. If we spoke the facts to each other just like that, then that's how every conversation would go we would have to get up and preach. I'm not going to talk about the fact that I slipped up, that I sinned this week, because I want to talk about this bigger sin, about this person across town especially if they're a pastor, especially if they're worship leader because I don't want people to come up in here, and the only way people come up in here and see me as valid is if they see you as invalid. So I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that your sins are properly exposed. But we don't like to hold each other accountable. We just like to expose other people, which is why right, if we ever notice every time we hold somebody.
Speaker 1:It's so much easier to expose other people, yes, and it's a lot more fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you get a lot more views People we love the conversation. There's a lot more fun because you get a lot more views People we love the conversation. There's a lot more engagement when you are exposing people than it is when you are holding them accountable. So I understand why. I mean, I'm a Christian. I love the Lord and the Lord be having to work on me because I will watch the Real Housewives. I'm just being honest, shame.
Speaker 2:I will watch love and Hip Hop. Bigger shame.
Speaker 1:And I will be up to date On everything that's going on On Love and Hip Hop and Real Housewives of Atlanta. I know what's going on Now. I don't know who dad around the world. I didn't even know Ozzy Osbourne Dad the other day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just like everybody's obsessed with that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I had no idea, crazy billboards and everything.
Speaker 1:I had no idea, but let me tell you what's going on on Love Hip Hop though. So it's like you know, we don't like to hold each other accountable. We like to expose other people and we get the views, we get the clicks, we get the ratings, we get the people applauding us for exposing. But if you ever notice, anytime a Christian pastor or worship leader is exposed in the name of holding them accountable, we never actually bring them back in the fold, like once the pastor done slipped up and then had an extramarital affair. He gonna always be a cheater and he can't never preach to us again.
Speaker 2:Well, he should more than likely stick to the congregation for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's what I would say you can sit down for a while. Yeah, I mean, that's what I would say you can sit down for a while so you can get your life right, get your family right. But then the wife be done, moved on. God be done, moved on. Kids done, forgot about it. He ready to preach. It's been 20 years and we still hold that over his head shame on me because I can't.
Speaker 2:I don't know the verse by memory, but there is one that says pastors should be above reproach. You got that right. So like they shouldn't be, no, shouldn't have like a scandalous background.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Like me personally, with like all my whole life, I would not want to be a pastor.
Speaker 1:No, me neither. Being a pastor does not sound like a fun job. My point is, though, having the room and the opportunity to forgive people. Now, I'm not saying that once you slip as a pastor, you got to be a pastor again. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is I am not going to miss out on what God is pouring out from you because you are human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but sometimes I do preach absolute heresy like come on, kenneth, copeland, let's be real.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, if you're, yeah, you know for a long time.
Speaker 2:There's some that are just like say something dumb and it's like okay, but there's other ones that, like we do need to be warned about. Yes, because there's a lot of people who are following what they're saying, who are believing that this is christianity and it just simply isn't it's's not.
Speaker 1:It's not and it's repetitive. So that's different. Like if you got a remorseful heart, a repentant heart, that's different. You could be held accountable, we can cover you and we can bring you back into the fold. But if your sin is exposed, but then you double down upon that and and then you continue to grow from that and then everybody else becomes wrong because you're wrong, that's different. Yeah, no, no, no, you're not. We're trying to hold you accountable, but there's no remorse. There's no remorse for harm.
Speaker 1:Don't let me get up on the tangent with that. But that's the reason why I ain't going to name no names, but somebody that we all know who was in high public office. That's why they are hated as much as they do. It ain't got nothing to do with the policies. It ain't got nothing to do. Well, I guess it does sometimes have something to do with the policies, but it's more so. There's no remorse and it's like yes, I've been caught in a lie, yes, I've been caught wrong, but I'm not sorry and what I said is true, although you know, we all know it's a lie, but what I said is true anyway.
Speaker 2:I don't think you could be more obvious as to who you're talking about.
Speaker 1:I mean, if the shoe fit, if the shoe fit, tie it up and put it on oh man. Side note unrelated Release the Epstein files.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, I knew it. I agree, though that was on our last episode.
Speaker 1:What's going on with that? You're supposed to know more about it than me, because I don't follow the stuff You're supposed to know about it.
Speaker 2:I don't follow a lot of politics either. I've followed that story a little bit. There's a lot of conservatives calling that out yeah, about how is there they're not releasing it.
Speaker 1:I mean is it conservatives, like we know? Like tucker carlson oh, that's a big conservative yeah a lot of people follow him Trump not going to be happy about this.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I think even like some people on the Daily Wire, like Michael Knowles was saying something about it. I don't remember, I've just seen it in like mostly comments. Benny Johnson, who's another big conservative voice you might not know is calling it out, but the reality is he's probably on it.
Speaker 1:Who on?
Speaker 2:it Trump.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:Wait, we're not naming names, but.
Speaker 1:I mean, we know who up on that list. Okay, here's my theory, though.
Speaker 2:Because he ran his campaign on.
Speaker 1:On releasing the Epstein Files.
Speaker 2:Like destroying the elite class basically. Right, right, and so then now you're not doing that. It's like it can really only mean one thing Right, and we know they got the list, they got the list.
Speaker 1:They got the list. They've been telling us about this list. They done hyped it up. I was so prepared for it.
Speaker 1:I don't care for politics at this point in my life, but the Epstein list was definitely on my radar and I was waiting for the ball to drop. Oh, we finna get them today, so that list drop is over and then they time out. The list don't exist. After the attorney general said that the list was on her desk a couple of months ago and now it don't exist. So but honestly, this is my true, true opinion Nothing for or against Donald Trump.
Speaker 1:I do not think Biden or Trump is on the list. I do think that there are some very big moneymakers on the list, on the list, and those big moneymakers are not going to allow this list to ever see the light of day. So I don't care if a Democrat was in the White House or Republican was in the White House, that list would never see the light of day. Assuming that it exists, because at this point we've just been assuming, based on what Trump and his campaign has said, that this list exists, and being that Trump was best friends with Epstein, I thought that this is actually one thing that I can believe. So yeah, assuming that the list exists, then I think there's some very powerful people who will not let that list come to light. I, at least, don't want to be responsible for bringing that list to light, and that's all I'm going to say about that, because I don't want to have a mysterious car accident.
Speaker 2:Yeah, neither do I. Okay, last question that we can end this on doesn't have to be a long answer.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give you a long answer.
Speaker 2:I know. That's why I said it doesn't need to be a long answer, so that it will be shorter than Okay. Well, actually it's up to you, because you're the one that has to go. Do you believe that people can get to a point in life where they no longer sin?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. I think the stereotypical thought or I shouldn't speak for everybody, For me at least, when I see older folks, especially in the church they've been serving Jesus a long time I automatically think they don't sin, Like they ain't got no sin in their lives, ain't got no sin in their heart. But I don't think that there is a point where you are completely free of sin. I do think there is a point in life, maybe later in life, where you are not as tempted as you were when you were younger, but I don't think there's a point where you just don't do that. And then I also think it has to do a lot with both capabilities and friends that you are around or the people that you hang around.
Speaker 1:Because I remember in college saying I'm never fornicating again, and as soon as I matched with somebody I was fornicating, and after that I was saying I'm never doing that again because I want to follow Christ.
Speaker 1:And then the people that I'm hanging around were saying oh, that's all right, it's not that big of a deal, it's not that bad. But I think as you age, especially when you are a Bible believer, when you are walking with Christ and you do life with a community of people who walk with Christ, who can then hold you accountable, whether your conversation, your meditation is on Christ. I do think you get to a point where the temptations are not as great as they were, but no, I don't think that you are just out existing on a whole day and you don't sin Fair enough. I think, if you pray for repentance just before you go to sleep and then you know you get all that out the way and then you get up in the morning you do it again, you have devotions with God and then you go to brush your teeth, I think at that moment, when you're washing your face and you brush your teeth, you can say I've been saved all day long, but by lunchtime you probably had to repent it again.
Speaker 2:Okay. Fair answer, and it really wasn't that long either.
Speaker 1:See, look at that, you got another question. You should just ask me another question. It's a freebie.
Speaker 2:No, I don't have anything left. Got a nice like 50 minutes in. Who, 50 minutes? We've been talking for 50 minutes. Okay, it's at 4836.
Speaker 1:You lying Time is too fast.
Speaker 2:Well, when you're in good company.
Speaker 1:There we go. You're a good company. Anyways, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2:Yes, thanks for coming. Thanks again for your just do it attitude and inspiring me to get mine done, and I'm sure you'll leave my links in the yes, I was going to say mention what your podcast name is so people can find it.
Speaker 1:It's called the Lo and Behold Podcast, so you can find it on YouTube and on tiktok spelled lo yep, lo and behold podcast. Okay, so it's a play on low, because I'm lawrence low, you get it yeah, I get it all right.
Speaker 2:Thanks everybody for listening. Have a blessed week. Bye, love you.