Caleb Podcast
Welcome to Caleb Podcast, where we dive deep into the stories and perspectives that challenge conventional religious thought. Join me, Caleb Parker, your host and fellow seeker, as we embark on a journey to explore spirituality, faith, and humanity from a refreshingly open-minded perspective.
In each episode, I sit down with guests from diverse backgrounds and walks of life. From artists to activists, scientists to philosophers, we engage in candid conversations that transcend the boundaries of traditional Christian discourse. Together, we unravel the complexities of belief, doubt, and the human experience in the context of modern society.
Whether you identify as a devout believer, a skeptic, or something in between, Unhinged Christian offers a space for exploration and discovery. No topic is off-limits as we challenge assumptions, confront taboos, and embrace the richness of our shared humanity.
Join us as we navigate the intersections of faith, doubt, and everything in between. Tune in to Unhinged Christian and open your mind to a new dimension of spiritual inquiry.
Caleb Podcast
039: Religious Liberty. We Also Kinda Talk About Women Being Pastors. With Lawrence Williams
How did religious liberty in America become so entangled with political identity? This raw, thought-provoking conversation examines the troubling disconnect between Christian values and political actions.
We begin by exploring how religious liberty has been weaponized to defend policies that contradict biblical teaching. The case of a wrongfully deported father reveals how Christian silence on injustice undermines our witness. "As a Christian, as a believer, I want to see those kids have their dad back," one speaker passionately argues, highlighting the gap between "family values" rhetoric and political reality.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we dive deep into biblical texts about women in church leadership. Romans 16 becomes our guide as we examine Paul's references to women as his "co-workers" in ministry. This theological debate exemplifies how scripture requires careful contextual reading rather than cherry-picking verses to support predetermined positions. I do okay during this section but it did show me that I need to be more versed (pun intended) in theology.
Most powerfully, we explore what authentic ministry truly looks like in an age of Christian celebrity and political polarization. One speaker shares how a simple dinner invitation transformed his life more profoundly than any sermon. "That is more ministry than a lot of pastors and Christians alike will put in their entire lifetime," he reflects, reminding us that Jesus' command to feed the hungry and welcome the stranger represents the heart of the gospel.
Where do we go from here? By returning to relationship-based ministry, speaking truth regardless of political fallout, and remembering our primary citizenship is in God's kingdom. As one speaker concludes, "You're not spreading the gospel by who you vote for... we are spreading the gospel one person at a time."
Leave a comment sharing your thoughts on religious liberty and how Christians can better navigate the tension between faith and politics. What does authentic ministry look like in your context?
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Anyway, for this episode, I think it'd be good to just jump in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1:Because you've already been on here a few times.
Speaker 2:So people know who you are Religious liberty.
Speaker 1:Religious liberty what exactly is it and how do we go about doing it?
Speaker 2:Well, religious liberty, for at least most of us, has come to mean the freedom to practice our religion as we deem fit.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm glad you explained that, because I'm thinking religious liberty was stuff that Christians can do that other people might think of as sin.
Speaker 2:And well, I think that is a very good and common observation, I feel like, of people outside of Christianity or you know, who are not religious, because it usually seems like Christians can do things that would not be okay or normal outside of that. Outside of that and we see that in every factor, every section of our society, from schools to politics, to music, we see Christians being able to do things because they call themselves Christian. They're able to do things and get away with saying certain things that you just would not be able to do or say if you are not a Christian.
Speaker 1:Do you have any?
Speaker 2:examples See. Now you get me into the debate.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I would say— I'm not trying to debate. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Well, I already know I'm going to get in trouble with this, but I don't care about that, with this, but you know, I don't care about that. Um, it's, it's one of the things that I I that's on my mind right now is um deportations. That's one of the things that's on my mind.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, this would be a good, a good discussion. So okay, continue.
Speaker 2:And the reason why it's, on my mind, is not because we shouldn't have some sort of comprehensive immigration policy. Right, because we've been illegally deporting legal immigrants and legal residents and in the name of what should be their first amendment right as guaranteed by the constitution. Right, what we've been saying is, if you are speaking against the policies of this administration or the stances of this administration, then we have the right. The administration is saying we have the right to revoke your funding or to deport you in the case that you are not a United States citizen by birth.
Speaker 1:Are you referring to the student? I don't remember his name. I really don't. I'm one of the people that really doesn't watch the news. When I say I don't watch it, I'm really not watching it. I really don't watch it.
Speaker 2:Well, I bet you know his name Well, honestly, I don't remember his name. So there was a student and there was also. There was a student that you mentioned who was deported. But there was also who I'm thinking about A father, a legal resident of the United States, a taxpaying citizen.
Speaker 1:Wasn't father. Didn't they figure out that that was a mistake?
Speaker 2:They did figure out that it was a mistake. They did figure out that it was a mistake. They were told by the supreme court to bring him back. He's still not back. Okay, and they're saying, oh, he's in el salvador, where we shipped him to, but we can't find him. This, the el salvadorian president, he's not going to be sending him back. I, I, I wish, I number one that it didn't happen.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And number two, that there wasn't some sort of attempt to cover it up or to downplay it. And then three, I wish that we would just go down there and get them. Excuse me, el Salvador, we made a mistake, why won't?
Speaker 1:the president of El Salvador, send them back.
Speaker 2:There is no incentive, right? So the president of El Salvador has to continue the line that this legal citizen, this legal immigrant, this non-criminal, he doesn't have a criminal record, this guy is a criminal. He has to continue that line. This guy is a criminal. He has to continue that line because, right now, the last thing you want to do, obviously, if you're the president of El Salvador, is tick off the guy in the White House.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which alternates?
Speaker 1:between Elon Musk and Donald Trump.
Speaker 2:So if he sends him back back he's considered a criminal? No, if he said, my point is, if the salvadoran president sends him back, then he would have to admit that that guy is not a criminal, that he has not violated the law of the united states or that he entered as salvador illegally, and that would make trump wrong oh, and it's a pride thing exactly okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that would make the administration's policy wrong. It would be admitting that this was a failure, and so the last thing you want to do is is do exactly that. So it's unfortunate, but for me, at least, that's. That's what. But, to the point, in terms of religious liberty and people being able to do things and say things, as a Christian, that you just wouldn't be able to do, this is one of those things. Like we, we clearly have a mistake here. We clearly have a problem here. There's something that is clearly illegal and instead of Christians, the Christian church saying now wait a minute, because see when we voted, you know, to tackle illegal immigration, we didn't vote to start kicking out non-criminals and illegal residents.
Speaker 1:I did.
Speaker 2:Oh, right, right, I forgot about that. You did Joking, but we didn't we. We didn't vote for that, we didn't expect that. That wasn't on the menu, right? So as a christian, as a believer, I want to see those kids have their dad back. I want to see that family restored. Yeah, and that can't happen until he comes back home, a home that he should have never been drug out from in the first place I do have to make it clear that I I was joking.
Speaker 1:I didn't vote for legal immigrants to be um, and yes, I agree that I would also like them to have their father back. Yeah, especially as a christian when we talk about how important the family value.
Speaker 2:Father role is yes, yes so so is the mother. But like in this, case the father's, in this case the father's missing. So now we're, what we're saying is we're we're willing to let these kids grow without a father. Because of his ego the guy in the white, of his ego, the guy in the White House, his ego. We want to protect his pride, his ego.
Speaker 1:But is that 100% what's happening or is this propaganda? That is 100% what's happening?
Speaker 2:You can't tell me that we can go into two countries and fight wars at once and get Osama bin Laden and get Saddam Hussein and can't find a US resident in the asylum.
Speaker 1:To be fair, that was a different presidency, though that was. Maybe Trump isn't as good at these operations, y'all said he was going to be the best ever.
Speaker 2:I thought we was making America great again.
Speaker 1:I never said he was going to be the best ever I thought we was making America great again.
Speaker 2:So let's get back to greatness and let's bring this father home. And I think, at the end of the day, for me, this is just one of those areas where, as a Christian, as a believer, it's like we can't speak out and say that's wrong. It's clearly wrong and we need to rectify it.
Speaker 1:Christianity has become so politicized now, oh, 100% when if you question anything on any political side all of a sudden. If, for example, if I question anything about conservatism, all of a sudden I'm a raging atheist liberal.
Speaker 2:Oh 100%.
Speaker 1:That's just how it goes nowadays. So I think part of it is that fear of if I were to I mean I'm not afraid to say that he should be brought back I can, I'm saying that right now If I were to say that around conservatives, well, this, they'd say something.
Speaker 2:So what about isms?
Speaker 1:So what about isms? So what about isms? And then, all of a sudden, I would be labeled as leftists and I'm a socialist and all you know, and and that's my point, right, right you can't even define what marxism is there is. We have to admit that our party is screwing up on this one Screwing up.
Speaker 2:We're all screwing up, but we won't Even. Besides that, though because I well, I don't mind beating up on any political party I sort of think it goes beyond that, because I feel like this is a case again, obama. I am born and raised in Southwest Detroit, and Southwest Detroit is very Close to, and it's full of, hispanic folks. We got Mexican town, we got Puerto Ricans, we got Mexican food. I mean, it is, it is just it. It wasn't a surprise to see a Mexican flag waving where I come from, and that was just it.
Speaker 2:And in those neighborhoods Obama was known as the deporter in chief, because at the time, obama deported more Undocumented immigrants than any other president in American history at the time. So he was always known, in my neighborhood at least, as a deporter-in-chief. Wow. Now Republicans don't want to admit that, but when it came to tackling illegal immigration or undocumented immigration, obama was at the forefront of that. Now, fast forward in terms of that. Obama went out here trying to be our pastor, and nobody was saying that Obama was going to be our pastor, our pastor-in-chief, right? Nobody thought Obama was the second coming of Jesus Christ, except Sean Hannity, who couldn't seem to get enough about talking about him and addressing President Obama as the anointed one.
Speaker 1:Sean Hannity. Sean Hannity, isn't he a right-wing talking head?
Speaker 2:Yeah, talking head.
Speaker 1:That's surprising.
Speaker 2:Right. But whether you think that is wrong or right, my point is Christians expected that from a man who was clearly not a Christian. According to the, I believe that Obama is a Christian, but my point is the larger evangelical circle does not think Obama is a Christian to this day. They think he's a Muslim.
Speaker 1:Well, with that middle name, With that middle name.
Speaker 2:See, that's where it's been wrong. And then you tell me he's from Kenya. No, no, no, we know where you're from and it ain't from Kenya. Now, we can't talk about and can't name no other country up over there, but we know it ain't Kenya.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought it was just Africa.
Speaker 2:Right, right Now. Don't be lying to us. We don't know what that is, but no, he was able to say the things that he said and he wasn't held to a Christian standard because we never prophesied him to be the one who Jesus sent his ascent, if not the second coming of Jesus Christ with orange hair, this time is saying and doing things under the banner of Christianity. That does not represent Christianity. Well, and I'm not saying that he has to, because I think all of us, we all have fallen short of the glory and if you look at any one of us individually, we do not represent the gospel.
Speaker 2:Well, that said, I never showed up at your church and said please vote for me so I can restore religious rights and religious liberty, because we've been attacked. I never showed up at your church and said vote for me so we can say Merry Christmas again, as if we somehow were prevented from saying Merry Christmas, right, and so we are holding him to a different standard because he is a Christian. I just did not expect that standard to be so low that we allow it like these things to happen and be afraid to speak up against it and say I can still love you, I can still vote for you, and this is wrong because, as a Christian, the kingdom of God is here. The United States of America will always be here. It's either our Bible is our guiding light and our roadmap to life, or the Constitution. It cannot be both.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I don't think you can, I might get in trouble. I don't think you can really rule or run a nation using the Bible, because I think some things require worldly responses, such as wars or that part like there's. No, I don't think god has ever ordained a modern war. The ones in the bible, those were all him telling the israelites do this, or when he was punishing Israel with the Babylonians that kind of thing that was all brought on by him.
Speaker 1:But I don't want to get too far into this. But like the Revolutionary War is not a Christian war Right, manifest destiny.
Speaker 2:Jesus did not come down and tell nobody to do that. Yeah, and to that point as well, we can have a government that is solely based on the Bible, and we've seen that in the Bible government established by God, ran by God.
Speaker 2:Our problem as humans is that we just want a king, we want a human king and so every government that we try to establish, by God, for God, through God to God, we end up at the point where we say, okay, god, we get it. Blah, blah, blah, we want a king, and then we start listening to that king more than we start listening to our God. And so, to that point, no, I don't think that God has established any modern government, because that would be God saying well, forget about my kingdom, here go yours, that's not God, because we have exalted our own government, our own constitution, our own political leaders on both sides of the aisle, above God.
Speaker 2:We've exalted our constitution. I know people who claim to be Christian, by the way, because that's what we're talking about who carry a United States constitution in paper form and ain't got a paper Bible. Really, really, how'd that happen? How'd that work?
Speaker 1:They claim to be Christian, claim to be Christian, and I mean devout Christian.
Speaker 2:Full of the Holy Ghost.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Going to church speaking in tongues and ain't got a paper Bible, but they got a paper constitution because they want to let you know that they American through and through.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is weird, how many Christians have idolized America.
Speaker 2:My point.
Speaker 1:Patriotism is equal to Christianity.
Speaker 2:Christianity and that has never been. And now that we've all talked about the bad things in terms of that, there obviously is some good. I love the United States of America. I'm proud to be an American citizen. I will never be more proud to be an American citizen than I am to be a believer to be a citizen of heaven and that, to me, that is the goal.
Speaker 2:That is the goal. Like heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word should never pass away. So anything that you are building on, whether it's in Washington DC or whether it's in Moscow, you name it Anything that you are building on that is not the word of god is just sinking sand and we're essentially wasting our time. But in the midst of wasting our time, I need to make sure, as a believer, because I think this is a.
Speaker 2:This is the point. This is the part in not just American history but in world history, where Christians two billion of us where Christians, we can have an impact on the culture and not just be consumers of the culture. But we could be saying the big C church could be saying there are things that we have tolerated from governments, from ourselves, for so long that does not align with the word of God and we ain't taking it no more. So if you want to fly up under the banner of Christianity, be my guest, but do not use our Bible twisted. Speak good words, smooth talking words in our ear for our vote, for our money or for our attention yeah, and I would say that a lot of politicians have used that throughout the years 100 and we should stop it.
Speaker 2:We should stop it. We should stop it and not to bring her up. Do you know who I'm talking about when I say her? I don't think I do Candy, candy, candy Soans, oh, oh. I love all God's children. Some of them be hard to love.
Speaker 1:She's Catholic, just some of them be hard to love. She's Catholic now, is she? Her husband is Catholic, and so I think she converted to it Since when. So she is no longer a child of God.
Speaker 2:Oh no, she can't be.
Speaker 1:Since when? I think it was last year. Don't quote me. I just know that she's affirming like she's Catholic adjacent, at the very least Because her husband is.
Speaker 2:Catholic Lord.
Speaker 1:And also I don't want to talk about how she's Christian when she has Andrew Tate on and affirms him.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:It's one thing to have him on and rebuke him and debate him on his beliefs. But if you're just having him on because he's anti-woke, Okay, that's where I was going next.
Speaker 2:So she's been, she's had a reformation, if you can call it that. I believe all of us can come back to Jesus and be redeemed and healed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I do too. Now she says she didn't have a reformation. She's talking about she don't like Trump, like that no more, because she's focused on the Bible and Trump does not live in by the Bible. This, this whole administration, all this this is too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah and okay. That's not the worst thing that you could say, that's my point Now.
Speaker 2:I never, ever thought I would be agreeing with something that she would say, and she's getting a lot of pushback.
Speaker 1:I know yeah, probably from conservatives.
Speaker 2:From conservatives, yeah, I mean, come on, candy. We told you you black number one, so that's, that's, that was your strike one. And we told you if you don't continue to push that party line, you go mess up your money. Nah, she done went and she done tried to mess up her money, but she said it's for the Lord. My point, though. My point, though, is she's taken a stand that she believes biblical. There's some solid biblical foundations, and instead of Christians saying, hmm, yeah, let me check my own faith, let me check my own beliefs, we have decided to fall on the lines of political, the political lines.
Speaker 1:That's what I was saying, and it's terrible If I question anything Trump does all of a sudden. I'm not a Christian anymore and I'm I'm just in love with Russia and all that they stand for or whatever.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's like it's. It's very hard as a I don't know who. I told this the other day but sometimes it's hard to minister, even to people our age and in our peer group the day. But sometimes it's hard to minister even to people our age and in our peer group because the loudest voices in the room are the most toxic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so they're reading the book that we want them to read the Bible. They're quoting the scriptures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but are they reading the whole thing in context?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not, which is why I am—how can I put this? Because I don't want to offend nobody here because there is value in all messages that are biblical, that are founded on the Bible, on the Bible. That being said, I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with the more topical preaching that is you choose your topic, you choose your scriptures, you put it together and then you deliver it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say that you said that there's value.
Speaker 2:I think there's value in it.
Speaker 1:I do too sometimes, but I also think there are topical messages that are absolutely dangerous.
Speaker 2:Do not, and that's where I feel like the situation has just gotten out of hand. I don't know if there's a committee meeting that I missed, but I missed this vote because I didn't vote for this. A meeting that I miss, but I missed this vote because I didn't vote for this where we are using the Bible to support our opinions, because that's what sometimes topical preaching feel like instead of preaching the Bible. That's one Number two. Of course, we talked about this not too long ago. I like learning the Bible in context.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that's how it should be, that's how it should be.
Speaker 2:Where is Paul? What is he talking, paul? What is he talking about? What is he doing? I want to know all of that. Who is he writing to? Who's carrying the message? Yeah, that's important. We were going over church. I went to on Sunday. That was an amazing sermon, and not just because the guy preaching was my father-in-law, but because I genuinely thought it was an amazing sermon. He preached Romans 16. And he broke it down in a way that, honestly, I don't think I've ever heard a preacher preach that.
Speaker 1:Romans is after Acts right. Yes, okay, because we just went through Acts 16.
Speaker 2:Amen. And so he preached Romans 16 and he broke it down and he talked about all of the women that were named in Romans 16.
Speaker 1:And literally, Must be a very liberal church.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. The whole time he was up there. When I tell you, the hair on the back of my neck was standing.
Speaker 1:I was like— Because it was so moving.
Speaker 2:No, it was more like we don't do that. We don't—no, we don't preach like this anymore, especially when you're talking about the Bible supports women carrying the message of Jesus Christ. No, no, no. You can't be preaching like that. No, absolutely not. You can't be up on that way anymore. We done voted for our king. We living in a handmaid's tale. You're supposed to be preaching that only men can preach and lead congregations.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that the lead pastor should be a man Now see, that's a different topic. I don't think there's. I think it's fine if missionaries are women or they're, but a missionary?
Speaker 2:can't be a man.
Speaker 1:They can't be Evangelizing on the corner.
Speaker 2:a woman, that's's fine, but like the lead pastor at a church so you want the women's out there on the corner instead of the strong means.
Speaker 1:I want both so the means could be a missionary. Yes, I'm saying the men can be missionary to, I'm saying the lead pastor okay, so can the woman have any other role?
Speaker 2:Youth pastor Youth pastor.
Speaker 1:I think it's fine if a woman is teaching the children.
Speaker 2:So you think it's fine if a woman can teach my kids but she can't teach me Correct. I guess that makes sense. They don't make sense. I'm sorry. I feel like for for me, right Cause I can, I can read it for myself, I can break it out, I can understand, I can study and all of that. But if I am entrusting you with my kids, then by nature I feel like I should be able to entrust you with myself. And you can't teach my kids nothing. You can't teach me. That's how, that's how I teach me, that's how I feel. That's how you feel. I refuse to like for me if I'm against women preaching or anything of that sort, because there are some people who are against women preaching. But you didn't say preaching, you just said lead pastor. But if I am against women preacher and women leading the church as a lead pastor, then I don't want women teaching my kids.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's different, because children are Gullible, not as yeah, not as developed as us.
Speaker 2:Not as developed. So why would I leave something that God has entrusted to me that is not as yeah, not as developed as us? Not as developed. So why would I leave something that god has entrusted to me that is not as developed in the hands of somebody who could take it in the wrong direction?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't fully understand why the Bible says that women can't teach the congregation.
Speaker 2:Where did you say that?
Speaker 1:I think it's in Timothy.
Speaker 2:Oh we can read Timothy when Paul says I permit not a woman to teach. Why is Paul saying that? Well, you seem to know. Why is Paul saying I? Well, you seem to know. No, I want to ask you why is Paul saying I permit?
Speaker 1:not a woman to teach. So he says, because in the garden Eve was uh persuaded by the devil, and then she persuaded Adam.
Speaker 2:Right, we know that's what happened.
Speaker 1:So I think today that would translate to women generally are more susceptible to being driven to emotions. This does not mean that men cannot be, but women are generally more susceptible to being driven by emotions. It's just in their nature, which I think is good, but it's not in the context of teaching men who are to become leaders when they're adults. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So no, I'm not a theologian.
Speaker 1:I also think that it also ties into James. When James says many of you shouldn't teach because you're going to be judged harsher and I think that that burden should be on men.
Speaker 2:We can go come back to that, because I felt like you were going in the right direction. I was about about to say amen, but that's why I got to hold my amen. That'd be my problem sometimes for real. For real in church, well, I don't be holding my amens and I'll be done saying amen and then the pastor follow up with something I don't agree with. And now I got to stay silent, look around and hope.
Speaker 1:Where did, where did, where did I go that?
Speaker 2:it was that last part where you said I think the burden should be on men and not women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why is that wrong? I'm going to get back to that If men want to be the strong leaders that they claim they want to be. They should take that burden on.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that it would be wrong, obviously, of a man to take on that burden of leadership. What I'm saying is that men can't do it at the expense of women, because women were also leading the early church. When Paul is talking, we just got done reading Romans 16.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but how often were they leading? There's one example in the Bible.
Speaker 2:There's one example in the Bible One example that literally changed the course of history, if you think.
Speaker 1:Paul was Jesus.
Speaker 2:Christ. If you think Paul was Jesus Christ going into what is now modern-day Turkey to preach by himself, then absolutely not. That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:He's not Jesus and also, I never said he was going by himself.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, my point is. My point is Paul says and he points out the women who were instrumental in the ministry during his time and he explicitly states their effect on the ministry and he explicitly states how effective they were in building the early church in the places that Paul did not reach but he could only write to. And when Paul left those places that he could reach, paul explicitly states that women were instrumental in that.
Speaker 1:When Paul mentions women in his writings let's read Romans 16.
Speaker 2:But when Paul mentions women in his writings or couples in his writings, nine times out of 10, he mentions the female first.
Speaker 1:That doesn't mean that they were the leader.
Speaker 2:I believe that every word in the Bible means something and the way that it's structured.
Speaker 1:There is no reason. No, no, no. This is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I'm not putting nothing in Paul's mouth. What I'm saying is there is no incentive to include women in the book they don't have a place in creating. There's no incentive for Paul to be writing so highly about women in his time, in his day.
Speaker 1:Just because he's writing highly of them doesn't mean that they were the lead pastor of that congregation.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Or does it say that?
Speaker 2:Okay. Acts of the Apostles 2 and 17,. The last days, I will pour out my spirit upon all people. Wait, what is this? Acts of the Apostles? This is Acts 2 and 17. In the last days, god says I will pour out my spirit upon all people. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Why are our daughters prophesying?
Speaker 1:Prophesying is not the same as teaching. Okay, I didn't say they couldn't prophesy, okay, okay let's, let's go here.
Speaker 2:What is prophesying?
Speaker 1:it is a word from god. Why is?
Speaker 2:god speaking to a woman to prophesy and we would believe a woman because hear directly from god to prophesy but that same woman cannot hear directly from God to teach us a lesson Teaching isn't.
Speaker 1:you're not here, I don't think you hear directly from God and then you teach a message. What they doing. I think prophesying can be words of encouragement. It could be hey, the Lord put this verse on my heart to tell you today. Those are examples. When you're preaching, you are preaching the word of God in its context. You're not saying God, give me this message for this Sunday. That's not how it works, because those ones always get blown way out of proportion and get screwed up.
Speaker 2:Okay, I see where our difference is here. We disagree on what prophesying is, I think, what you just said, words of encouragement and things of that sort that could just be on your heart. People are just full of encouragement and joy. So we agree there, right, god didn't ordain you, he didn't wake you up out of your sleep, or they could prophesy and hey, you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 1:Right, that's my point. The Lord put something on my heart.
Speaker 2:Prophesying is hearing from God. Prophesying is speaking directly from God's mouth to God's people. In the Bible, prophesying was usually doom and destruction is coming. Get your life right, you know prophesying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think that it necessarily changed. It could still mean that.
Speaker 2:It can still mean that 100%. There are some prophets out there, I believe, who are saying repent, repent, repent. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repent, repent, repent 100 yeah what I'm saying is I don't think that god would give a woman my daughter the ability I don't bring the emotions into it.
Speaker 1:My daughter, he said your son oh okay, you're saying like my, as in god, yes, okay, I thought you were talking about, like if you had a daughter? No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I don't have any daughters, but my point is I don't. I find it hard for me to believe that God would be allowing the woman to prophesy and not teach.
Speaker 1:But teaching in this context, as you are leading an entire congregation. Those are the sheep and you are responsible for them.
Speaker 2:In many places, not to backtrack, but in many places where we see, especially in Corinthians, where Paul is saying let your woman keep silent, in the church right, where Paul is saying that in many of those places he's speaking directly to that church, that particular congregation, because there's a lot of riffraff going on, there's a whole lot of hoopla right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not the verses I was referring to, but my point is.
Speaker 2:I can understand where you're coming from in that, because Paul is having the same problem with the church at Corinth, where there's some disagreement and, instead of the men getting together and figuring it out and just putting the stake in the ground, there's a lot of kerfuffle and confusion that is aided by the women in the church right. Paul is speaking directly to them. So I can understand your line of reasoning that women shouldn't be able to lead a church. What I'm saying is I vehemently disagree with that and scripture does not back that up place that I can believe that women can prophesy but can't teach, I can't get there.
Speaker 2:I can't lead again.
Speaker 1:I just mean the main congregation, the lead pastor Sunday sermon in the main sanctuary well, I think, I think lead pastors don't necessarily have to preach.
Speaker 2:But to your point, in the case that the lead pastor is 9-7-10, the one who was preaching.
Speaker 1:We're just going to disagree on this. I disagreed with Bronson when he came on too.
Speaker 2:What did Bronson say? I don't remember, it was so long ago.
Speaker 1:It was just like a quick thing, and then, once the episode was done, we discussed more after that.
Speaker 2:Before we button this up and get back to what we were talking about, and that is religious liberty, can I just read I also want anybody who's listening.
Speaker 1:If you're on Spotify, you can comment or YouTube. Comment what you think. Can women preach, can they not? I just want to know other people's opinions. Thanks, you continue.
Speaker 2:I, just before we button this up, I really just want to read Romans, chapter 16.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I'm reading out of the NLT version so hopefully nobody casts me in the hell.
Speaker 1:NLT, it ain't the KJV. No, the KJV. I don't think the KJV is that good. I like ESV, oh ESV.
Speaker 2:You might be going to hell. Why is that? I don't know. People told me, lawrence, you gonna go to hell. The ESV on your phone.
Speaker 1:ESV is like a word for word that's what I said. It's like the KJV, but it's easier to understand.
Speaker 2:That's what I said, and it was like hellfire, brimstone. Yeah, well, whatever. Okay. Romans 16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church of Centraea. I can't pronounce all the church. You understand why I speak Ebonics, that's my native tongue. Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God's people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially me.
Speaker 2:Give my greetings to priscilla, woman, and aquila, my co-workers. Paul didn't call them servants, he didn't say assistants. He didn't say they helped me out to get my robe and my water and my towel, because you know, I preach heavy. He said these are my co-workers in the ministry of christ jesus. In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I'm so thankful for them, and so are all the Gentile churches. Okay, okay, we're going to move on. Give my greetings to Mary, who has worked so hard for your benefit. I'm sure I don't know how he talked. Greet Adronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles. Wait, junia is a woman. Hold on. Why she? Why she respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did. Wait a minute, paul, okay, hold on.
Speaker 1:Wait, let's watch. Okay, well, romans 16 is going to be obviously something I didn't read that much into. And it's going to have to be something that I researched, because there may have been a reason as to why, but why? In Timothy does he say I permit not a woman to teach, because in the garden Eve, I forgot how he words it Right. Right, eve was deceived and then she deceived Adam, and is it?
Speaker 2:before or after? Paul says that when a woman prophesies that she should have a covering, is it before or after that? I told you I'm not a theologian, but I know Paul instructs women to have a covering, I think.
Speaker 1:Timothy is after Corinthians.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because the covering is in Corinthians mostly, I believe, okay.
Speaker 2:Number one. Now, I'm not saying this to be heretical, so please don't cast me into hell, although I know you can't, but Paul wasn't the best speaker. We know that he wasn't the best speaker when you read his writings. We've broken down, of course, the whole Bible into chapters and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're all one letter, right. So think of all of those letters from Paul as one letter, one run along sentence. And if you ever read his stuff in depth and clearly, he rambles, paul rambles. He can't seem to stay on the subject for too long. He goes off subject. He goes off subject, he has an aside, then he comes back it was a mistake.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think it was a mistake, but what I'm saying is he's talking to a specific people in a specific time about a specific issue. What he is definitely not saying is that women should not have that role, that women should not lead, that women do not have a place as coworkers among men, because if that be the case, then that would contradict all of the other instances where he identified women as his coworkers. So it's either Paul got amnesia or dementia or something like that. So we need to stop reading his writing because obviously he ain't all together.
Speaker 1:Or we believe it all, or it could be that when there wasn't as many believers, they needed them, and then later on, when the church was more established, that's when they decide that he says that the leader should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah. At what part in history do you think there was more men than women? What? At what part in human history do you think there were more men and women besides Cain and Abel?
Speaker 1:I was saying in the Christian faith, maybe in that, wherever he was, where they were all coming to Christ maybe it was more women came to Christ and he needed their help at that time.
Speaker 2:So he don't need their help, no more.
Speaker 1:No, he still does. I think that that was before the church was established.
Speaker 2:I think in the context of church and leading an entire congregation, it's different than evangelizing or prophesying which Paul couldn't have spoken to, because what we look at as the church today, where we're going to a building that has a staff that didn't exist. Church was in people's houses back in Paul's day, so Paul couldn't have spoken to something.
Speaker 1:I thought Peter established the first church.
Speaker 2:Upon this rock I will build my church. Jesus is not saying a physical building. Jesus is not saying I'm going to set up a temple and I'm going to have our stained glass windows. Somebody call Michelangelo up over here to get us some paintings up in here, some angels, and somebody call I don't know somebody from Europe with blonde hair so he can represent me and be in all of the pictures and stuff like that. That's not what Jesus was saying and stuff like that. That's not what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying I am building my church on the faith that Peter has, on the service that Peter has, not the physical building.
Speaker 1:Well, you just dismantled the entire Catholic church by saying that it is what it is. Anyway, this is not what I've personally heard from my church yet. Uh, this is just like youtube and research, so it's something I'd have to research more, but I am going to stand firm in what I believe for now, because you should okay, because you know I like somebody who can stand firm and what they believe, but my what.
Speaker 2:I do know about you, though, but I do know about you and I hope that we respect each other in this light that when we have gotten to a point where we have heard from God or we have researched enough, we have talked to enough people, where it's clear that we're wrong, we admit that we're wrong.
Speaker 1:I feel like you're putting that on my side a little bit more.
Speaker 2:I'm not putting that on your side at all, because, let me tell you, this is something that I continuously look into myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's a difficult one, and it's in our culture, right, it's in our culture. The man is the head of the house, right, I am to lead my family and things of that sort, and I have always heard in every denomination that women should not be leading church, they should not be pastoring, and in some denominations they should not be preaching, right, so they can't even take, you know, the podium at some churches. So no, it exists, it is out there. I've been in church all of my life, so I have known that this exists. So this is definitely something that I look into and what I cannot as I said earlier, I cannot bring myself to the conclusion. The first time I heard about God was through a woman, was through a woman.
Speaker 2:Again, I didn't say that was wrong. No, no, no. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I'm making a point, that is, that I cannot get to a place where I think god would orchestrate that and allow that, because I believe that he does, that he will allow that and not allow a woman to to teach or to lead a congregation again to that point.
Speaker 1:It's just like agree to disagree at this point. I know you. I know you're really trying to get me.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to get you to say I'm camera, no, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no, no wrong, I'm never gonna let you appear to be outside of the box, so so that's fine if I appear that way to these, to anybody's listening, it's not fine, please don't hate me if I have my points are bad.
Speaker 1:I tried my best. But again, say in the comments what you guys think and back it up biblically too, because I don't want just emotions well, no, we both have biblical.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I know I'm saying like people who are going to be commenting.
Speaker 1:Okay, if, if it's just like yeah, I think that women can't be preachers, I just think that's a bad answer. Yeah, back it up. Back up, like go through the Romans 16, because that's a good point. I've never really like looked far, looked too into it, because I can't look into every single part of the Bible all the time who can, but now that's going to be a section that I am going to be for a while.
Speaker 2:Re-romans, re-pause all of paul's writing, and you'll see how many times he mentions women in their effect. To be fair, though, I had read over the whole priscilla and aquila, because he also mentions them in other writings as well, and every time I read over priscilla and aquila I just automatically thought that they were men. Really, yeah, I don't know, I'm just well, they named me and priscilla back in the back in the day how do you not know that priscilla is a?
Speaker 2:woman whose name is Aquila, so I figured there's no. If Paul is talking about Priscilla and Aquila, Aquila must be a dude and we just changed the name later on down the line and so we just talking about dudes leading the church, we just talking about dudes being impactful in the ministry helping Paul out. Who else going to help Paul out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly that's what.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to say it's got to be the dudes. So Paul must be tough. Priscilla and Nicola dudes Thank you. Okay, but yes, oh to the point. Sorry To the religious liberty.
Speaker 1:Yes, now that we're 50 minutes in, we're back on the religious liberty.
Speaker 2:Let's button that up, I think.
Speaker 2:I think in many instances we have, we have taken our religious liberty not only for granted, but we have used our religious liberty to cover up our injustice, our sins, our failures. And we have felt that, because we have the freedom of religion and we are Christian, that we should not, cannot and could not be condemned for our own wrong actions. And I think it's high time that Christians start setting a standard, that Christians start setting a standard, because we know what we collectively want and don't want from people who are not Christian. So I'm not talking about them, but I'm talking about us cleaning house and not each other, because I think it's very important to do what the Bible says, and it is cover one another. But I think it's important that we start cleaning house ourselves, that we start checking ourselves and examining, re-examining ourselves and our faith. What are the things that? What are the opinions, the ideas, the acts, the everything? What is it in my life that I have allowed, that I have engaged in, that I have become comfortable with? That is contrary to my faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that churches need to set higher standards. For it to change and if you want it to bleed into culture the right way, I think churches need to set higher standards. But the churches that have the most people, mega churches they're not preaching true biblical I love Jesus words.
Speaker 2:I mean, well, eventually you lose your congregation, with the whole being nice and Jesus was a servant, kind of sermons. So yes, I would agree with that Well.
Speaker 1:I just mean there's not, and I don't want to be biased, because at my church they do preach about being a servant. They do preach about sacrifice. Of course it's not a perfect church no church is but the majority of churches that I've gone to in the past mega churches or like those fun churches they're not preaching about servanthood or sacrifice. Most of the time it's hey, you should give your money and you'll get more back.
Speaker 2:You know I love a good prosperity message every now and again.
Speaker 1:But it's just not true.
Speaker 2:We know that. We know that there are people who literally read the Sur surgeon general's warning on a pack of cigarettes and still bite and smoke every last one.
Speaker 1:we know that, yeah, but sometimes we go to church to feel good, I'm already broke, at least preach I need to go to church, to feel convicted in a good way amen what I'm getting at is there are people and I'm not going to say any names that just constantly complain about where America's at.
Speaker 2:Oh 100%.
Speaker 1:And they do nothing to change it. They go home and they're Christians, self-proclaimed Christians, and they drink alcohol, specifically Alcohol, my lord. And then they don't even have to be getting drunk, but it's like, okay, you want to complain about america and then come home and live this self-indulgent life. That part, even if it's just a little buzz, it's still a self-indulgent life. You're not living a life of sacrifice, you're not pouring into anything that part you're watching movies and then all you do is complain about america. It's like what have you done?
Speaker 2:in your own sphere of influence and exactly like that that is usually the the part, usually when we present. You know, here's a problem, here's the solution. Um, it seems overwhelming. It seems overwhelming. I think. I think the best thought leaders know and understand that they cannot alone change culture, change the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't care how many people listen to you. It's not going to be everybody and there's going to be somebody out there Hopefully in the United States of America, as it used to exist who will disagree with you and won't be afraid to speak up. But so, yeah, don't try to now. If the Lord has put it on your heart and you can change the world, please go right ahead. Go right ahead Now. I know it's only one, jesus, but maybe you think you could be number two. So you go right ahead.
Speaker 2:And in the meantime, for the rest of us, I think God is requiring of us to have that impact on ourselves, on our house. One of the reasons why I lean so heavy into the women preaching and focus it upon the home is because that is your first church. Your home is your first church. It's going to be hard for you to get up and preach to me if your house is not in order. Paul even talked about that. How are you going to be an elder? You ain't got your money in order? It's very hard. If your house isn't in order, how can you help us get our house in order? That being said, yeah, it starts with us, it starts at home and it starts in our sphere of influence. So maybe your job is not to go out on the street corner, maybe your job is to not you know start a church. And if you're watching this, please do not say I've been convicted by what they said up on the podcast. I'm going down the street and I'm starting a church. We don't need no more churches.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need quality churches.
Speaker 2:I am so sorry to be the one to tell you and I love church. Like I said, I've been going to church all my life. I love church. We don't need no more churches. What we need is more Christians. What we need is more people who are with all of their heart None of us are perfect but with all of their heart, are following the word of God and who are, who are trying to affect the people around them. According to the word of God, we're not beating up on nobody, we're not killing nobody, and we refuse to support things that do not also uplift and glorify God, especially if it means because I got to be a part of your group. In order to be a part of your group, I have to be willing to to let go of my faith and my beliefs. Come on now. It's not worth it.
Speaker 1:I also wanted to say I I didn't mean that people need to go evangelize on the corners no, I know you, I'm just saying I'm just saying like the, the people that complain, it's like for you could could be.
Speaker 1:Your kid is in a bad relationship with somebody and you need to be honest with them about it, but you're not. And then that starts a whole chain reaction because they stay in this relationship. What if they have kids with this person? That's not good for them. And then those kids grow up in a not so you know what I'm saying Not so Christian home, and it's just like it just goes down the line when it could have been stopped by someone saying this is not good for you.
Speaker 2:This is not good.
Speaker 1:Because honesty really is the best policy, the best policy.
Speaker 2:I want to give an honorable mention and I don't like to use names, but I want to give an honorable mention to Pastor McVeach of Kentwood Community Church in Grand Rapids. And here's why Pastor McVeach was a missionary. Well, once it's in your blood, it's in your blood, it's a missionary. Wait, you said he, he.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the lead pastor. Yes, he's the lead pastor.
Speaker 2:Yes, he is All right, he's the lead pastor at Kentwood Community Church and he was a missionary overseas and of course, he talks a lot about that. But one of the things that he really focuses on once he got back stateside and he has continued to preach that, and if you go to Kipwell Community Church, you will experience this and see this live and in person, and that is being a church of and for the nations, of and for the nations. And when he first came to Grand Rapids, I was at a community church at the time. He comes to Grand Rapids and he's like you know, I'm living in Detroit and blah blah, blah blah and I'm from Detroit. So my brother, my kinsman, spirit, you know we're part of Detroit, blah blah blah. We talked, we talked about all that and he did something that I didn't expect for him to do he invited me to dinner.
Speaker 1:Invited me to dinner as the lead pastor. He wasn't even the lead pastor yet, okay.
Speaker 2:What was he at the time? He was just a visiting guy. He was kind of interviewing for the job, I guess you could say, because they had not decided that he should be the lead pastor. But he invited me for dinner and he invited me for dinner Christmas Eve and was it good. It was delicious. It was delicious and I went there. Christmas Day I drove to Detroit, visited my family. Christmas Day I went over and had dinner with the Veach family.
Speaker 1:Is that where you met Mickey?
Speaker 2:That's where I met Mickey.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That's where I met Mickey Veach, who literally obviously my best friend to this day. The thing is, and the point is, that is more ministry than a lot of pastors and Christians alike will put in their entire lifetime.
Speaker 1:That's what I was trying to, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's more ministry. I mean, yeah, that spoke volumes to me, right.
Speaker 1:And then now look at who you are today.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that one thing is what made you a Christian, but but I am saying that act right, because I'm thinking, in order for me to lead people to Christ, you better get it right right now. Come on, lift your hands, give God some praise. I'm thinking I got to be like that, yeah, when in reality, being a believer and reaching out to people in your sphere of influence involves inviting them out to dinner. And of course he could have said, because I wouldn't have done this, to be honest with you, that's how I know he had better admit, because I'm not inviting nobody. I don't know, and I mean for the first time, you're not coming to the Christmas dinner. Now you can come to the cookout, you know the Juneteenth cookout, but you're not coming to the Christmas. The Christmas I want nobody around my family, all like that. We all close and I don't know if you got, you could have had the Rona before the Rona was even here. I don't know, I don't know you like that. But he invited me to his house for Christmas dinner, a stranger, somebody that he didn't, somebody he didn't have to do that for, and to me that is ministry. And so I have definitely tried to in my life invite people out for dinner.
Speaker 2:My first time that I met Ronson. Ronson showed up at the church. He was looking to be the youth pastor, or the young adults pastor was. But I saw him at the church and somebody had, you know, introduced me to him and say, oh, you know, he's thinking about being a youth pastor. I said, ron, so let's go out to lunch. We went out to lunch First time I met Christian. Christian came, said you know, he wanted to work in the youth ministry, trying to figure out where he want to lay, and I said look, christian, let's go out to lunch Right. Every time I have learned how to pay that forward because I have learned through that one act. I've learned that that is more ministry than just about anything else I was doing at the time. And I think that is where we can all start in our sphere of influence.
Speaker 2:Invite somebody out for coffee, invite somebody out for dinner. That's how you spread the love of Jesus Christ. That's how you spread the gospel, jesus Christ. That's how you spread the gospel. When I was hungry, you fed me. Don't be giving me the gospel and you can't give me a piece of bread. That's just me. But the Lord's still working on my heart.
Speaker 2:But it's hard to listen to you on an empty stomach, okay, if you see me with a need, okay, I understand. Jesus died for my sins, but he didn't die for this light bill. I got to get these lights on. I got to get my eggs. It's too high, okay, I need me an egg sandwich in the morning. Come on somebody Like. Meet them at their knee, invite them out, have a conversation, get to know them. Then you are spreading the gospel. You're not spreading the gospel by who you vote for. You're not spreading the gospel by who you speak against. You're not spreading the gospel by deporting legal immigrants who have no felony convictions. We are spreading the gospel one person at a time, one to one, through coffee, through coffee shops, in our homes, in our houses where the early church met. Anyway, that's how we do it.
Speaker 1:Right on, and I think that's a perfect way to end this. That's it so, anyway. Thanks everybody for listening Again, comment what your opinions are. Thanks, lawrence, for coming on, of course always, and everybody. Have a blessed week. Bye, love you.