027: Unplanned Paths: Finding Purpose in Ministry. With Pastor Joshua Walters

      What happens when a musician feels called to leave behind the familiar rhythm of the drums and bass to embrace the challenges of teaching and pastoral care? In this heartfelt episode, we share the story of our unexpected spiritual journey, exploring the profound shifts in roles and responsibilities within church ministry. We'll discuss the personal growth that comes from stepping out of comfortable roles and the realization that God has a unique purpose in reshaping our desires.

      You'll gain insights into the balance between natural talent and the necessity for continual development, especially in public speaking, as we reflect on the joy found in supporting others through teaching and pastoral care. Hear wisdom from Mike Signorelli on integrating faith into decision-making processes, especially for young individuals at life's crossroads. We also delve into the transformative power of uncommon discipline in spiritual practices and the impact of structured Bible reading plans on personal faith during challenging times like the COVID-19 pandemic.

      Joshuas' journey to Utah brought unexpected challenges and incredible growth, from planting a new church in a predominantly Mormon environment to learning the importance of deepening our prayer life and fostering genuine encounters with the Holy Spirit. He shares the emotional turmoil of leaving his home church, the lessons learned about sacrifice and submission, and the heartfelt worship experiences that refined our spiritual abilities. Join us as we recount his return home, emphasizing the significance of trusting in God's purpose and the richness of living a life of faith.

Chapters

• 0:00 Transitioning Roles in Ministry
• 11:51 God's Calling and Living in Submission
• 22:08 Uncommon Discipline and Transformative Journeys
• 29:25 Unexpected Invitation to Plant a Church
• 34:03 Unexpected Transition in Ministry
• 43:20 Healing and Forgiveness in Ministry
• 51:36 Exploring Ministry in Utah
• 1:06:14 Navigating Religious Differences in Utah
• 1:17:03 Journey of Submission and Sacrifice
• 1:23:17 Heartfelt Worship and Spiritual Refinement
• 1:26:56 Growing Up in the Bible Belt

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, as far as playing bass goes, I don't do it a whole lot anymore.

Speaker 2: 0:05

Really yeah Interesting.

Speaker 1: 0:07

That's weird because I remember I don't remember if it was the guitar center conversation that we had that one time.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Yeah, I was thinking about that on the way over here.

Speaker 1: 0:18

But you had said something like I was like what do you want to do Drums? Like is that what you want to do forever? And you're like no, I want to really want to go into ministry. I don't remember if that was at church or if that was at guitar center, but I was thinking in my head man, there's no way I'd ever give up playing bass for something else yeah and then I started doing this so that's kind of where that comes from.

Speaker 1: 0:39

It's not that I dislike it, uh-huh, but I just found something new, and I think it's because obviously I think God grows us in different areas of our life. Like this is something that's still uncomfortable for me, and playing bass on stage was becoming so second nature. Yep, not that that's what that should take away. Like, oh, worship's easy, now I don't have to do it anymore. That's not what I'm saying, but yeah, so I just relate worship's easy, now I don't have to do it anymore. That's not what I'm saying. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06

So I just relate to that. When you told me that you want to do ministry, yeah, it's dude, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:12

So I'm sorry I have so many people ask me, especially these days, like do you miss drums, miss playing them? But I'm never up there. Like I wish I was playing drums instead of now I play electric and singing all the time, that's just what I do. Okay, I mean, the last time I played drums in church, I mean I think I did a couple times in utah, but since we've been in michigan, it's been zero, zero times, zero times and you've been here back.

Speaker 1: 1:42

yeah, you've been back since March, april, april.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Yeah, so we're coming up on six months, yeah, and there just hasn't been a need which for me is great.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Right. Right, because now I'm not trying to recruit a bunch of different drummers or trying to scramble, but yeah, you get a grace. And you know I was just recently kind of had this epiphany. We're going to go right for it right here in the beginning, right on. But we had I really was wrestling with the whole process of moving back to Michigan is quite a story, so we can get into that later. But wrestling with the things that I desired right as far as I mean, if it's kids, if it's putting down roots where we are and all these things and being like I'm in this continual place of sacrificing those things, yeah Right. But also growing up hearing people say God's gonna give you the desires of your heart, I misunderstood that my entire life.

Speaker 2: 2:42

I think a lot of people do and I think it was to no fault of anybody who taught me Right. It was, I think, a lack of study and a lack of context. So I always thought it's the things that I desire, god wants me to have, the things that I have desire for, so he's going to give them to me. Yeah, I remember. I don't even remember, honestly, who I was talking to about it, but it's we. Just I feel like I live in this season, I live a life of sacrifice now, and that sounds really dramatic, but like I have to remind myself to kind of live in submission. And and it was a pastor, samuel, at Life West, and he said, man, when, when God called Moses to go to go free the people of Israel from Egypt, god gave him that desire to go to go free the people of Israel from Egypt, god gave him that desire to go. So God puts the desires of your heart in them. Yeah, he basically like reorients them Exactly.

Speaker 2: 3:32

He doesn't give you the things that you already want but, he changes your heart and transforms you and that's uh, yeah, it's just been a a cool thing for me to to kind of walk in and a cool thing for me to to kind of walk in and and as to tie that back like I love teaching people. Now, right, I still love to play drums. That's by far the most comfortable thing. If you talk about like comfort, it's not a okay, now I can relax because I'm comfortable doing this, but it's a I feel like I can really focus on. It's just me and the Lord. Right, I'm not leading anybody, like I'm not calling out chords or making sure the band's together. I can shut my eyes and just worship. You know, just get up Like I'm by myself in my room when I'm 14 years old, and but that changes and you start to be passionate about other things and it's fun to grow and to kind of stretch.

Speaker 1: 4:20

So you're still doing worship leading.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Yeah, I wear a lot of different hats right now.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Is it ever uh stressful? Um or do you enjoy every aspect of it?

Speaker 2: 4:36

Is it just like you're happy to do it all the time, or is it just Sure, I think there are absolutely parts of my job where I go man like it can be an inconvenience, right, I think? There's a.

Speaker 2: 4:49

I think there can be a stigma, especially in ministry, Like it's a privilege to do what I do, you know. I mean, you know we served together for a long time and I volunteered and then I was on staff as a worship leader and now I'm a worship pastor and it is an honor, is an honor to do what I do and I love my job. But I mean, the church I came from was a big, established ministry with you came in plugged in, you know there was no.

Speaker 2: 5:19

There was no setup and teardown. The AV crew did that whole thing, and that's something I couldn't even appreciate at the time, because it's all that I knew right. And now I'm every saturday, I'm working saturday night to set up the whole stage, bring in all of the gear, along with a great setup team that we have yeah and then sunday we're tearing it all down and but then youth service comes around sunday night and I'm going back out and doing that again.

Speaker 2: 5:42

So the there is part of it is filling the need and some of those practical things are like man, it's going to be great when we have a building, so that we can host this stuff how we would like to and do it as well as we want.

Speaker 1: 5:55

So is it kind of like a rented space for now? Is that where you're doing church?

Speaker 2: 5:59

Yes, so we meet in a middle school, okay, so it's kind of this hybrid thing. We our sound system, so our speakers and our subs and all of our lighting stays mounted. That's actually a really cool kind of story. Back before I was ever part of Life West, our pastor reached out to them and said hey, we'd love to rent your guys' cafeteria. And they said we'll never rent out to a church. That kind of seemed like okay, closed door cool Like that's not, that's not it.

Speaker 2: 6:27

And I don't remember the exact timeline, it might've been a few months later Our pastor's wife. She said I just feel like we should reach out to the school again. And he was like no, like they told me, no, like they said there's no way. And sure enough they had a. She's a little bit softer, he can be pretty blunt and straight to the point where his you know, it's usually kind of how it goes Wives make us a little bit more tender and can help us, kind of you know. And she went and asked and they were like, yeah, we might be able to do something like that.

Speaker 2: 6:56

And it was just like this total 180 degree flip and so our speakers stay in there, but all of our chairs we have about 320 chairs that we set up every Sunday. We've got a stage that comes out I think it's 12 panels now we just got a little bit bigger of a stage All of our cabling, everything gets run every single weekend. So yeah, it's, but they've been doing it for I don't know, it's gotta be three years now in this same space and it's just been a blessing man it's, with all the classrooms and stuff and the gym, our kids' areas are awesome. That's what we hear a lot of is people come and families enjoy it because they say, oh, my kids want to be here. And when parents don't have to convince their kids to go to church because the kids want to be there that's a big win for them to convince their kids to go to church, because the kids want to be there that's a big win for them.

Speaker 2: 7:50

So there are parts of it that of course we look forward to having our own space and being able to make it our own and kind of make it everything that we want to be. But it's also such a blessing for where we are right now and you don't want to rush out of where there's blessing and where there's fruit. You want to kind of sit where the Lord has you.

Speaker 1: 8:05

Right when it's producing and then, when something comes up, it comes up Exactly.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Yeah, so we're excited, but we're in no rush.

Speaker 1: 8:13

The Lord's blessing what we're doing. Yes, yeah, that's a good way to be. And you're pastoring now too, right, correct? How has that been?

Speaker 2: 8:22

It's been. You know it's been incredible. You know it hasn't it's not like my day-to-day totally radically shifted Right. It was funny when I started, before we came back, the plan was actually for me to be ordained out in Utah, just because it's been on Jasmine and I's heart for a long time and I love music and you know I can't see a day where, like music, ministry isn't a part of my life. But I've always known that there's. It's not all that I'm meant to do, you know it's not all that I'm passionate about.

Speaker 2: 8:57

You know I don't mean to be like over spiritual, like the Holy Spirit's, like that's. You're only doing part of it. You got to do a little bit more. You know, it's not like that, it's just I, I'm passionate about teaching people, you know, and I, and what has that that has turned into is? I love watching people understand and kind of see the light click on when they go oh, this is what, this is, what true biblical, sacrificial worship is not what I've been experiencing for most of my life, you know, um, so there's been a little I feel like I've been experiencing for most of my life, you know. So there's been a little.

Speaker 2: 9:26

I feel like I've been kind of pastoring before I ever was licensed. You know, you kind of do it with or without the title. Now I just am licensed to Mary and Barry, mary and Barry, mary, barry and counsel. That's kind of the change, and I haven't done any of that yet. I was going to do one funeral and then I got funeral fired. So Funeral fired it makes it sound way worse than it is. There was a family from our church that wanted me to do their funeral or a funeral of their family members and the family's from out of state, and they chose to do something different. So this lady was so sweet. She gave me a little card and she was like we're so sorry, but they decided they're going to do something else, and, and I totally understood it had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 2: 10:11

But I didn't go find Jasmine and I was like I think I just got funeral fired, I think they just fired me and we had a good laugh about it. But so, yeah, it's uh, it's things that I've been doing like our whole time in Utah. It's what we were doing is teaching people and I was preaching a little bit out in Utah. I got to start doing that and so, yeah, it's been an absolute blast. But it is very much like all of the practicals Cause I I went to Karis Karis Karis Bible College it's based out of Denver, it's Andrew Womack school College. It's based out of Denver, it's Andrew Womack School. They don't teach you the practicals of preaching like how to. At least for me, I didn't take courses like that and a lot of the pastors I've talked to the experience has been similar like coordinating a funeral service or a wedding or writing that or what that all looks like. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:03

Nobody tells you that and it's kind of just you figure it out as you go. They kind of throw you in and it's like all right, I guess we're going to kind of learn on the fly, that's how life is, it seems to be, yes, you learn on the fly.

Speaker 1: 11:16

When did you realize that you wanted to? I mean, you said you've always been teaching, but when did you realize that you really wanted to become the pastor, where you're standing up front and teaching a group of people like a sermon?

Speaker 2: 11:30

Sure, I wouldn't say that when I think of being a pastor, I don't think so much of teacher, I think more of shepherd. Yeah, right, I mean your five-fold ministry, right? Teachers, preachers, apostles, prophets and evangelists. I enjoy teaching, I do, but even more than that, I enjoy the pastoral care side of things. Right, yeah, I enjoy building a relationship with somebody, and when they're either they want to celebrate something more when they want to celebrate something, or when they're either they want to celebrate something more when they want to celebrate something, but or in there in a time of need and they say, hey, I need somebody who wants to stand alongside me. It's such a joy for me to be that person. You know, I, uh, first of all I'm honored that they would let me into that part of their life, but it is a um, but also it just is. So it's, it's fulfilling Cause it's really what I believe it, what I believe I've always been.

Speaker 2: 12:24

I've never been scared of public speaking, or you know, even back in middle school and high school. Really, that's usually people's number one fear. So that's the you know. I mean don't get me wrong, I get nerves, but some people it's crippling. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:37

But it makes me come alive. Man Like I love. I just really enjoy doing it and there's not like I can't point to one experience and say that's when I knew I loved public speaking. Right.

Speaker 2: 12:48

But I just I love going on this journey with people and saying man, that's. And the great part about preaching is it's usually if I'm speaking in a public setting. I've kind of come to this place where I almost always start with I'm not going to say anything incredibly profound. You know, it's not that I'm the smartest guy on the planet or have studied the most, because I'm not. There are people who have studied much longer just because they've had more time. I'm only 24, you know. But I truly believe, and I'm learning to believe this right In my worship, leading in my teaching, and if I'm preaching, it's that God has anointed me to do this and it's God's anointing, that he's given and I can operate confidently in that because it's not my own strength or my own might. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:32

And that's why I just go. Man, what an honor that I get to do this, that I get to teach and I get to build relationships with people and um, and that I get to help shepherd this body. That just the fact that I get to do that and it takes care of my family is still it blows my mind.

Speaker 1: 13:52

Yeah, is it something that has come naturally for you, or is it something that's like you started growing in and then continue to grow?

Speaker 2: 14:00

Yeah, uh, it Both yeah. So I think the relational side is very natural for me, I would agree.

Speaker 2: 14:10

Yeah, I enjoy talking to people. I like just kind of sitting and listening. I like to talk too, so it's easy for me to make a conversation go long. But I think as you step, as you kind of step farther and farther into what God's called you to do and really created you to do. Right it's we're called to be worshipers, right, we're called to, to walk in communion and relationship, right?

Speaker 2: 14:34

I think sometimes we use this and I'm guilty of this too, growing up using this calling word, I think, a little bit too flippantly of like there's one thing that God's called me to do and if I'm not doing that thing, I'm walking outside of his will.

Speaker 2: 14:47

You know If I'm not doing it right now, exactly? And there's this and I just I don't think that's an accurate description of it I am. We're called to live in submission to the Father, right, and he guides us through the peace of the Holy Spirit. Right, god can still do signs and wonders. I'm not saying that he can't but we have this amazing thing called the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of us and gives us peace and direction, and my goal is to just live in submission to that, because I'm a human. So I'm going to mess things up and I'm not going to make all the right decisions every time, you know, um, but yeah, we, we, uh, we just need to live in submission to that as we kind of go through, um, go through the different stages of our life. That can answer your question.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Yeah, okay, I think also, along with that, there's multiple callings that you can be called to, and it. And it's not like oh no, I picked the right, the wrong one. I talked a little bit with that, with Ricky, yeah, when it's like he was wondering if he was supposed to take the job at church or if he was going to take the promotion at uh, he was working at some car dealership, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Something like that, and it's like sometimes you have options right. It's like God's not going to be mad that you chose this over that, when you're living in submission to him and you know, walking with him daily.

Speaker 2: 16:15

Yeah, that's exactly it we just had. You're familiar with Mike Signorelli. He's from.

Speaker 2: 16:20

New York V1 Church so we just had him to our. We have like a lead team, our whole dream team, the leaders of our different teams. We all meet at our pastor's house once a month on Monday nights and we just it's a time of fellowship. There's like snacks in, but we usually will bring somebody in. I know Pastor Dwayne's done it before. Pastor James Sunnick has been there a few times and we he brought this really great, just kind of a good reminder of it's easy for people.

Speaker 2: 16:53

I think, especially these days and I watch a lot of kids who I mentor walk through it when they're coming out of high school and going into college of what's God calling me to do? What am I created to do? And that's a good question to ask. Don't get me wrong. You want, you know you can go too far the other way and God's not even involved in the decision-making. Right, I'm going to do what I want to do, just because I want to do it. Yeah, but he said you know, if we're all so eager to rush to what we think God's calling is for our life, what if he's calling to you? What's right in front of you right now?

Speaker 2: 17:28

You know, and that's where I look at, I look back over my life and I can see the times that I have not strived is where I think I've found the most peace and I end up just landing in a place I never could have put myself, like when I was hired at Rez.

Speaker 2: 17:51

I mean, that was a prompting. The Lord put it on my heart because it was for a worship leader position and I think Pastor Ken he had never heard me sing before. I also was terrified to sing in front of anybody. I knew how to play like four chords on my guitar and Pastor Jared Gregory had left for where he was going to help preach at Life Mission. And the Lord was like you have a heart for this, write it down and just bring it in and give it to Pastor Ken and that's all that you need to do. And I remember sitting I was sitting in my parents' office at the time and just going, man, like I'm going to look like such an idiot, like these are the things I'm passionate about, this is what I like to do, this is what I believe the Lord's laid on my heart for this ministry and what I feel like I bring to the table. Hire me as a worship leader right the kid who plays drums like that's just what I was known for.

Speaker 2: 18:50

And outside of that, like I didn't try to convince them, outside of that, it was the Holy Spirit spoke to the executive pastor and the worship pastor and then go into Utah. We never asked to go to Utah. We didn't ask, we had no intentions of moving to Utah. Um, and because of the pastor's obedience out there and and our sometimes stubborn obedience, um, we ended up there and we had no intention of moving back here. But they reached out to us and now we're helping at another church plant out in Allendale and I just I look back in all of the. There are never things I would have chosen for myself. Right, you know it's never in a place where I decided I wanted to go, but the Lord will.

Speaker 1: 19:39

When you live in submission to him, it's, yes, he takes care of you, but he also I mean the Lord orders your steps, you know, and the steps become clear when you just go hey, I'm going to step, when you tell me to step, yeah, I've noticed that living in the present is one of the best things you can do for that.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Yeah, exactly, and I was so bad at that for so long. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think everybody is.

Speaker 1: 20:02

I've been there too. I just think, when you're living more in the present, it's like the things almost start to fall in place, rather than like, oh, I have to do this right now, I have to get this done. Cause.

Speaker 1: 20:14

I had a huge problem with this podcast in the beginning, where it was like I have to have an episode out every week and it's got to be this long, it's got to be this, this, this and that, and then recently it's been I've kind of let it go a little bit, whereas I'm still doing it. But it's not as stressful when you're just like I'm gonna. I'm gonna calm down and like not make this my identity. Yeah, come on man because that's what I was. I would constantly check the views.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Am I getting any more subscribers. And then it's like the second you just stop focusing so much on it. I mean, I was still working on it, but it was just like almost living life a little more slow. Yeah, focusing more on my prayer time and my Bible time and time with the Lord has just brought me so much more peace.

Speaker 2: 21:08

Yeah, that's exactly it, man, and that's I've even seen that too. On the side of since being licensed, right, there's a like, there's a responsibility that comes with that right. But there's also a biblical accountability, right. Right, the bible says few should desire to teach because they'll be held to a higher standard, right, so there is a you know. Thankfully that doesn't scare me, but, man, if that doesn't light a fire under my butt to make sure what I'm teaching is right, yeah, but also my private life like to for me to be even more on purpose about man. If I'm saying that you need to be spending time with god, I better be spending time with the lord. Yeah, if I'm saying you need to be even more on purpose about man, if I'm saying that you need to be spending time with God, I better be spending time with the Lord. If.

Speaker 2: 21:48

I'm saying you need to be in your word if you want to hear from God. I better be in my word. You know what I mean. And the crazy thing is even beyond that. Yes, I want to be authentic and I don't want to be a hypocrite, but that's just how I'm supposed to live my life to begin with, you know. So that's some of the other like my. Our pastor says this coined this phrase right when we moved back and it like rocked me. You know, it's kind of it's similar to like a Dave Ramsey live like no one else. You can live like no one else you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:21

But he said we were at this conference up north and he said uncommon results come from common things done with uncommon discipline. And I was sitting there and it was like the Lord convicted me, like right on the spot. You know, it was not just that I don't read my Bible at all or that I, you know, but even the like man are you getting? Are you willing to get up earlier just to spend some time with me? You know, and that's where it's. I remember I was actually living in this building when COVID happened and it was the first time in my life my sleep schedule was like so whack because nothing's open, I can't go hang out with anybody, so you just start binge watching stuff.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Were you able to work.

Speaker 2: 23:02

Well. So that's a crazy part of that story. My first day on staff, my first time in full-time ministry as my main source of income, was the day that Michigan shut down.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Oh man.

Speaker 2: 23:14

So I showed up. I don't remember the exact date, it was March something, 2020. And yeah, sure enough, I think it was March 26. Pastor Al, the executive pastor at the time, comes down. We just got word the state's shutting down. We got to record services, so I was at church for like 10 hours that day. We recorded like four weeks worth of services, and then I was here by myself for like a month, did you guys change into different clothes for each one?

Speaker 1: 23:42

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:44

So we came, I ran back here and grabbed some different stuff. Well, jasmine called me and told me what to grab, because I don't dress myself well, I guess. But yeah, different outfits, the whole thing, and it was, I mean, talk about a shock. It was like man, that's because I was so excited we had been believing for like years and, yeah, that was my first day on staff. But sorry, I totally just rabbit trailed. What was I even answering just now? We were talking about, oh, uncommon discipline. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:19

So it was just kind of the practicals of my day. It's easy when we talk about tithing and those things, about giving God our first 10th Right, um, and I, you know, I think there are people who can take that too far Like you don't have to give away a 10th of your sandwich. You know, at the risk of being heretical, I'm going to. I think I can make that claim pretty boldly, but giving the Lord the first part of my day, you know, waking up and saying, God, I want to.

Speaker 2: 24:49

I want to actually spend time with you and I want to spend time with your word and doing and being intentional about putting practical things in place for me to do that. You know I was. You know I would do different Bible studies and the YouVersion things and those are great, those aren't wrong. But I never felt like I had a good rhythm where I'm not jumping around the Bible all over the place. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:09

It usually was. I would hear something in a podcast and that would bring me to Mark and I would do a study on Mark and I would kind of go through and try to get a good understanding. But there's actually I just started a Church of the Highlands down in Alabama. Have you heard Church of the Highlands Pastor Chris Hodges? I have not. So he also has a podcast called the Grow Leader Podcast and their whole thing is they just want to equip other churches. So they have a bunch of resources that they've made that are free to pretty much anybody.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Is it like Bible studies and?

Speaker 2: 25:43

stuff, yeah, all kinds of stuff. So they have this. It's a whole pdf uh document, but they've broken down the bible in a year. But it's some old testament, some new testament, a proverb in a psalm every single day oh nice and that's where, for me, that's a practical thing I can put in place. That is easier for me to wrap my head around right when.

Speaker 2: 26:05

I can say every single day, I'm using discipline to get up early enough to get through and really digest and meditate on the word that I'm reading that morning. And even that, like you said, when you prioritize that and you put God first, that bears fruit, because you're sowing into yourself and sowing into your heart and you're going to reap life, and life abundantly right, yep, so it's yeah, man that's so awesome that you're doing that. That's huge.

Speaker 1: 26:35

What did I say I was doing? Spending time with God every day, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:37

In your prayer life. Your podcast wasn't your identity.

Speaker 1: 26:40

Right, it wasn't in what you do Right, yeah, identity right, it wasn't in what you do, right? Yeah, yeah, and you've mentioned it a couple times. But utah, what made you want to go, or what? When did you find out it was something that you were to do, to go to utah, like what was?

Speaker 2: 26:54

the jared, reach out to you um, yeah, that's uh, how much time do we have? No, we um. So that was kind of the beginning of a really transformative journey for Jasmine, who's my wife and I. We it was, I'm trying to think, christmas of 22. I believe I'm getting those dates right. I believe Christmas is 2024. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:27

So, Christmas is 22. That entire year of 2022, to give some background, I had been leading worship for two and a half years at that point, but I was. I placed myself like I was very bottom of the totem pole, like I was not, and it was not anybody else on the staff who made me feel that way. Right, but it's just. I'm there with Ken Reynolds, jasmine, tiffany, landon, bruce. You know these people who are just run circles around me in the musical, especially in what we were doing right, playing drums.

Speaker 2: 28:01

I could hold my own you know that was my most of my life, but now I'm singing and playing guitar and I feel totally exposed, like I don't have the years of practice or experience or um. But at the beginning of 2022, we started getting phone calls um from other churches and they would be calling me saying hey, we, we would love if you would consider to come and and work for us, if you'd be considering to come be our worship leader. How did they get your number? So it's through Link right.

Speaker 1: 28:35

Okay, so these are affiliated with.

Speaker 2: 28:37

Correct Affiliated churches, gotcha. So I'm sure they called Res and said, hey, we need a worship leader. Pastor Dwayne said I got somebody and I did not realize that that was happening. Um, but out of nowhere I start getting all these phone calls from, I mean, it was like five, six different churches and it was happening often. Hey, do you want to come? Would you come visit? Would you come and lead on a sunday here? Would you come and do this? And I remember sitting down with jasmine and man. I'm honored that they would call me, but I feel like I'm the last person they should be calling, like I'm not, I'm not.

Speaker 2: 29:10

Everyone else on the staff, like everyone else here has been, knows the administrative side better of what we do, the organizational side, that you all have more experience. Why in the world are they calling me Like I'm? I'm learning, I'm still growing, you know. So that's going on through 2022. And then it started getting weird. Where we had, I had pastors at the church I was working at saying, hey, did you choose a church yet? And I would look at them like what? Like yeah, here, this is where, like we're committed. Oh, pastors at res At res Would be asking us.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Yeah, and I'm like they must have heard. Churches are calling. Yeah. But I remember being so perplexed because we were building Rise and that was starting to get some traction and we were having the master class and people were joining the team. In the time from when Rise started till when we left, the team doubled. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:04

I remember.

Speaker 2: 30:05

Which was just an absolute blessing. That was a victory for us, you know. But also people enjoyed it. People wanted at least from what I saw but it was bearing fruit. You know, we were developing musicians, not just practically but spiritually, teaching them. Hey, this is what it means to be a worshiper and what it means to be a worship leader, because it doesn't matter if you're on a microphone or not, especially if you're on that platform, you are a worship leader, you know. And we so we were like no, this is like we're making a difference here. Why would we want to leave Like we don't feel called out of here, we don't. So that's happened for about a year. That's happening for about a year. In october of 22, pastor jared gave us a call and he said hey, um, we're having a night of worship, um, on new year's eve, to kind of bring in the new year with praise.

Speaker 2: 30:56

I think was kind of the yeah kind of the thing he said would you guys consider fly? We'll fly you out and will you come and lead worship, Help us lead worship for this? And I remember saying like will I consider it? Are you kidding me? Of course I'm coming, Like you're going to fly me out to Utah. I've never been out West. This will be sweet. And we we he, him and Pastor Jared and Alicia mentored Jasmine and I for a long time, so we had we just have a long history with them.

Speaker 1: 31:23

So he said, of course, yeah, how long was he at res? Because he was there for a couple years when I got there. But how long was he there before that?

Speaker 2: 31:32

Oh man, I want to say he came in, I'm going to get it wrong and when Jasmine listens to this she's going to be like you idiot. I think it was 2015, 2016. They were there for about three or four years Gotcha, but that was kind of right. 2016, 2017 is when Jasmine and I started dating and he was a percussionist, so of course, we gravitated to each other. So we built up a lot of relationship and when they left Rez, that was our first experience with like man, like we know God's calling you and we can see it Like we know that this is good but, man, it breaks our hearts that you're not going to be here with us, you know.

Speaker 2: 32:13

So we were all kinds of amped like sweet, we're going to get to go to Utah and see Jared and Alicia, and so that. And on that phone call he said, hey, we're looking for a worship leader. He said it's a crazy faith thing, you know, we can't pay anybody. It's you'd come out as a missionary and serve. If you know anyone, can you send them my way? And I remember sitting like in that moment I was like I'm surprised you didn't even ask us. You know, like I wasn't offended, I was just surprised, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:48

But I was like, yeah, man, I'll keep my ear to the ground and uh, now, if he would have asked me then I would have told him no, but yeah, do you think he was kind of trying to hint at it?

Speaker 2: 32:53

oh yeah, okay, oh yeah yeah so that kind of conversation ended and we were like, yeah, well, we got our flights sorted out, and november comes around, and and he calls us again and and there are times in my life there's a few times in my life I can go back to where either it's I saw somebody, or I started a conversation, or something came up and my spirit was just quickened, like I know, all right, something's happening right now. And this phone call in November was one of those times. So we were talking about to be honest with you, I don't even remember, but it was Jared, jasmine and I all talking, and Jasmine had to go to rehearsal. So once she left, like I'm my heart's racing, I was like my palms are sweating and I was like man, what, what's going on? Like I knew something was coming. And he said hey, man, I just wanted to ask you I know it's a crazy thing and I know you guys will probably say no, but would you consider at least praying about moving out here and being our worship leaders and helping plant this church with us? So they were planting that following January, it's November, so in two months they're going to start and I'll tell you.

Speaker 2: 34:03

In that moment I knew we were supposed to go. It just was a like all these churches are calling. I had no desire to leave Rez. You know, we had bought a house the year before, right around the corner. We were planning on starting a family. We loved the team and where we were. But I knew in that moment, like I was excited, like this is it, like I have a heart for this we need to go. But it was. That's also in all the, the, the, all the sacrifice started to kind of reveal itself. Right, it's. There's the initial excitement and then you realize, oh, this is going to cost us something, you know. So Jasmine came back from rehearsal and I said, hey, you won't believe what, what Jared asked me and she was like no, I said, yeah, he, he asked us to move to Utah. She was like why would he do that? There's no way I'm moving to Utah. A little advice If you ever say God, I'll do anything but this, or there's no way I'm doing this, yep, it's always going to end up, I can almost guarantee you that's exactly where you're going. So that started this.

Speaker 2: 35:11

Yeah, the next month and a half or so, we kind of didn't really want to think about it because I think we both knew, so we didn't talk about it a whole lot, and we knew that we were going to go out there for the night of worship. So I think we thought, hey, man, if God's going to call us out there, he's going to open the doors and make it clear to us there's going to be no flight on the way home. Right, our house will burn down and we'll be stuck there. But in reality I told the Lord, I said God, I cause like I can tell him what to do. But I just said, god, it's, we'll go wherever you want us to go. All I ask is you? You speak to my wife. I don't want to convince her, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:52

Cause that was. That was a scary thing as a husband to say hey, can? I think we need to leave all of our family, friends and community and the house that we love. I can imagine. I don't want to. So I said I don't want to convince her because if you're calling me, you're calling her, you know, and and uh. So that was kind of my prayer the whole time. And so just a week before we left um, I don't know if you've heard any of this story before.

Speaker 1: 36:17

I don't think I have.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Yeah, so a week before we leave, we are leaving, I think, that Friday, to go to Utah. So it is the week of Christmas. Okay. And we left. Right after Christmas we get a text message from our boss. It says hey, can you come in early for a quick meeting before our worship staff meeting, and Jasmine and I are like sure yeah, no problem.

Speaker 2: 36:44

So she had been on staff there for about seven years. I was coming up on three or four years there. So we roll in, kind of like I mean not really thinking a whole lot of it and so we sit down and the short version is they kind of presented us with a contract saying, hey, we want you guys to find somewhere where you feel called, so you guys will you'll have some lessened responsibilities and we want to help you find a church where we can send you guys and we want to help partner with you, right, so you can kind of let us know what we can do to help, but we're going to send you guys and we want to help partner with you, right, so you can kind of let us know what we can do to help, but we're going to send you. Yeah, and man it.

Speaker 2: 37:22

When I tell you that was like, uh, like it felt like I got hit by a truck, you know, it felt like I was getting fired. Yeah and uh, I just remember sitting there like looking across the table and Jasmine and I looking at each other and going what they said yeah, you guys will have this year to go find somewhere that you feel called, but yeah, by the end of the year we're going to send you guys, so the end of 23. Okay, so, yeah, it wasn't like five days?

Speaker 2: 37:53

No, it was a whole year and it was incredibly generous. They're like well, in your service load, there's not going to be as much expected from you here. Still, we're going to take care of you guys, but we want you to be able to go and visit and go find somewhere. I just that was one of the in the moment, one of the worst days of my life. It was this, our, our home church.

Speaker 2: 38:16

It felt like man, we're we're getting kicked out yeah, you know where the reality is and we learned this through conversation and because they were surprised that. We were surprised because I think jasmine started crying. I probably was tearing up like man, but we love this church yeah like. This is where we want to serve, you know, and um.

Speaker 2: 38:35

So the meeting went interestingly and uh we um what does interestingly look like well, so the it was with pastor david, and then one of our other hr pastors who works in hr, okay, and when they presented this to us, like they were smiling and they were like so this is what this is going to be, this. And we were like what are you talking about? And they're like, no, but this is so I'm trying to be. And we were like, what are you talking about? And they're like, no, but this is so I'm trying to figure out. So I said what you're saying is my job is going away. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:01

And my job is going to be gone. Yeah. They said, yeah, we're going to restructure the department, and they were saying it as if I had already known. Oh, they thought Gotcha. So this through it was probably a month of meetings and I mean a lot of of frustration and trying to figure out what ended up happening. Is, when I took my position, the plan was always for me to be trained up and sent out.

Speaker 1: 39:28

Gotcha. That's why all the calls were coming.

Speaker 2: 39:30

So that's why everybody yeah, cause there was three years. It's time to come. And now what ended up happening, and why I think it got a little bit messy, is pastor ken facilitated my onboarding along with pastor duane, and they had that conversation. They said, yes, we want to hire you, but we're going to raise him up and we're going to send him out. Pastor ken had just recently passed away, so pastor david came in.

Speaker 2: 39:52

So it's, it really is nobody's fault yeah it just was a Pastor Ken was going through cancer and coming to the end of his life and Pastor David came in and there was no. It just got lost in the mess of this titan who had served at this ministry for 25 years, passing in the mourning and the grieving that came from that. And so it just it fell through the cracks. Right.

Speaker 2: 40:15

So, but this is where we look back and see God setting all of this up. So we find this out a few days before Christmas. We leave right after Christmas for seven days to go to the other side of the country and it was kind of a relief for us. Like we, honestly it was hard for us to be at church, like we did all of the Christmas services, christmas Eve, the whole thing, the rehearsals, and it was miserable. You know it was a. You know I remember sitting, I was playing drums for Christmas and I remember sitting back there going Lord, this is the last place I want to be right now.

Speaker 1: 40:53

And this is at res, at res, at the Christmas services, at the Christmas services.

Speaker 2: 40:56

Cause I felt like I'd gotten fired. I felt like my life was kind of being ripped out from under me, you know, and I just remember sitting there saying God, I like this, this is a worship and a sacrifice Like this costs me something. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:11

You know it's I love playing music and I love doing that and it's my whole life. I've said, man, what a joy it is for me that the things I love to do bring glory to the Lord. Right, the fact that I play music and I enjoy doing worship sets and that brings God glory, that is so cool. But I did not want to do it that day and so we make it through the services, go out. Utah and jasmine and I were both kind of like let's see what happens. You know, part of us was like let's not, we kind of hope nothing happens, because we don't want to move all the way out here, right. But uh, we just said we're going to kind of escape all of the chaos that's going on at home right now. And I found out after my father in law actually told Jasmine. They met us at our house before we left and he said I feel like something's going to happen on this trip. And Jasmine didn't tell me that because she didn't want me to get all amped up and excited about what was going on. So we went to Utah, did the night of worship, got to see around St George and I mean, see some old friends, and they were excited to show us around where they were living. And we get to the last day of Utah.

Speaker 2: 42:24

There was like a big potluck at Julianne's mini Do you remember the minis? She played piano. Yep, she played piano. Yep. So her and her husband, josh, and their kids moved out to Utah. Was it to help Jared as well? Yep, yeah, so they're there. Their kids moved out to Utah. Was it to help Jared as well? Yep, yeah, so they're there. They're there helping planting, they help she plays keys out there and Josh is doing kids ministry stuff. But they hosted at their house and we went through the whole potluck and it was still. You know, it was kind of a hey, we're going to send Josh and Jasmine back off, they're headed back to Michigan, and just kind of a thank you they're headed back to Michigan and just kind of a thank you, we'll see you later, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 42:57

And we kind of feel like, hey, we're in the clear, we got to the end, all like the super spiritual stuff already happened. Now we're just hanging out, you know. And so we did the whole potluck and we get to the end and Pastor Jerry's like, hey, let's just lay hands on them quick before we send them out. So we're expecting like a three minute God, we just pray for safe travels, place a hedge of protection around them as they send. We send them back. And, dude, when I tell you, it started like that, um, and you know, pastor Jared just kind of stopped and he said, man, if anybody has anything that they feel like the Lord has given them to pray over these two, I want to take some time to do that right now. And it was not like it's not like I felt the Holy Spirit fall on me and it was heavy and I'm stuck to the floor. It wasn't like that, but I knew like it felt like something was coming. So people are praying for us and Josh Minnie actually was the first one who started speaking to what was going on in Jasmine and I's hearts.

Speaker 2: 44:00

And he said you know, the Lord's giving me this picture of a hot air balloon and you could turn on the igniter and get the fire going in, but if you don't cut the ropes attached to the anchors, that thing's not going to go anywhere. And he said I see this, this vision, and these ropes are getting cut right. So in my mind I'm going, my job is gone, my house is gone, right. And but then I see the other rope is my family yeah because that's what was still holding me in michigan.

Speaker 2: 44:29

why I didn't want to leave was my family in my community, yeah and uh. So I'm sitting there like, oh man, like I know what's coming, I'm not ready for this. And so it continues like that for probably 15 minutes. And then there's this man, a man named David, who met me that night. He doesn't know my story. Most of the people in that room have no idea what happened the week before.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Was he somebody that was helping plant the church, or was he somebody who was just there for the worship?

Speaker 2: 45:03

night he was. They were there helping with kind of the church, but they didn't move there to plant the church. They were originally from Florida but, um, they had moved to utah during covid and they were kind of doing a home group. Um, and a lot of that home group ended up coming to utah or, I'm sorry, to hilltop gotcha so they were.

Speaker 2: 45:28

They were heavily involved, they helped lead the freedom classes, him and his wife. But they um, yeah, he like he knew nothing about us. Yeah, like I told him my name that night and he walked up and he just said you know, I feel like you guys are harboring some unforgiveness and some bitterness and God's telling me, if you don't let that go, you can't step into what he has for you. Next, and I'll tell you I'm serious as a heart attack. You next, and I'll tell you I'm serious as a heart attack. In that moment I know that I had been telling myself the right thing for me to do is to forgive them right, and to forgive the people who.

Speaker 1: 46:04

They didn't do anything against me, but I was hurt but you, like part of you felt at that time that they might have. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I felt I mean I felt betrayed.

Speaker 2: 46:13

Right, you know, nobody betrayed me like I want to. I want to represent them well. Reg took care of us so well in this whole process. But in that moment I felt betrayed, I felt left on my own, I felt kicked out. But I also know, I knew Jasmine was feeling that way. So he said that, and I'm serious, I'm sitting there holding her hand and I go God In my mind. I'm not saying I'm serious, I'm sitting there holding her hand and I go God, like in my mind. I'm not saying this out loud, I'm like God, you're so amazing, you love my wife so much. You would speak through this man to get to her. So I'm like praying for her that the Lord's going to soften her heart so that she can let go of all this stuff and um, and nobody and it.

Speaker 2: 46:56

That moment just kind of came in past and he said he said it again about three, three minutes later. I just feel like this unforgiveness and bitterness and resentment, like you guys have to let that go. And again I'm like, yes, lord, soften her heart. And because jasmine, she she's when she loves so and when and so when she gets hurt, she gets hurt. So I'm sitting there, yes, like this. This is it. I'm so glad that this amazing ministry opening moment is happening for my wife, you know, still nothing. Nothing really happened, and it was probably another five minutes. And his wife, who I haven't met yet, she kind of came in with some authority. She almost sounded angry. You know she wasn't angry, but she was right, I know, what you're talking about, yeah yeah

Speaker 2: 47:45

she came in with some, as a pentecostal would say, some holy spirit fire, and uh, but she just she walked right up to us and she said listen, you both are harboring unforgiveness and you need to forgive the people who hurt you. And in that moment, like I wasn't overcome with emotion or but I just felt like the Holy Spirit so gently, was like just just say that you forgive them. And she said that. She said you need to say their names out loud, so we're going to pray this prayer, really easy. And she said, god, I come to you today and today I choose to forgive. And she said say their names.

Speaker 2: 48:20

And I was not like like it wasn't like this built-up thing that I I let go, but I just start saying the names of the people I was hurt by and when I tell you, it was like the only way I can think to describe it is like you know, when you get a burn, and even when you put anything on it, it just hurts to the touch and there's nothing you can do to stop the stinging.

Speaker 2: 48:42

I had that, but this deep, deep pain in my heart, like this morning of that season of my life, and when I said, god, I choose to forgive. And I start listing off these names. It was like the Lord reached down and just put his finger right where that pain was. And these names it was like the lord reached down and just put his finger right where that pain was and it was gone. Wow, you know, and I, I broke down, I'm, I mean, I'm wailing ugly, crying like I couldn't tell you that last time I cried like that, you know, yeah, but it was just this release of. I didn't even realize I was, I had all this hurt kind of pent up.

Speaker 2: 49:16

So I am wailing, crying, and her name was Jojo. She's so, she's, so wonderful. She walks over to Jasmine and grabs her by her face. She says Jasmine, you need to release these people. And the exact same thing. She starts naming off people and just breaks down and it it turned into about an hour of I mean, just like a like it felt like an upper room experience, you know. It was like the manifest presence of God was there and he was healing people.

Speaker 2: 49:47

We were sitting there worshiping and praying and we just were on the floor on our faces for like an hour for like an hour and that was a, and that's something that only could have happened there, away from everybody here who's connected to what happened. You know, everyone there was disconnected. There was no like we could be authentic in ourselves and be open about where we were. And yeah, I mean the Lord supernaturally like healed our hearts in that moment, you know, and changed us. And that was the moment that I knew for sure like, all right, we're supposed to be here.

Speaker 2: 50:22

You know it felt like that chapter of Rez and serving there and what I had, what we had been able to do, like that was closed and we went home and I think it was a couple of days. But we were laying in bed one night and we on purpose hadn't talked about it and I just told I rolled over to Jasmine and said are we going to Utah or not? And she looked at me and she's like I think so and that was kind of it. Then the process was pretty fast, yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:55

so then we left by the end of March, beginning of April, and we were there and what was your full Utah experience like when you were there with Alec right Part of it.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Part of it. Okay yeah, so Alec and Bethany went out quite a while before we did. Yeah that's right.

Speaker 2: 51:12

I want to say I'm not even going to make a guess cause I'll get it wrong but they were out there for a while before we were. They were there when we went in December and we saw them. Alec played drums for that night of worship, but yeah, they ended up. I don't remember exactly when they came back from Utah, but yeah, we saw them for a while out there and got to connect with them. But, man, it was. Utah changed us. It changed the way that we view ministry. It changed our marriage. It changed us as individual people, you know, which feels weird to say, because we are individual people, but we we just do.

Speaker 2: 51:51

We're one, we do everything together you know, so, utahah we, we got a very clear understanding of what it means to actually be desperate for the lord, you know, and to actually be reliant on him every single day. Um, you know, in our I've said it like this in a lot of in our kind of midwestern christian culture, yeah a lot of us have grown up in a Christian community, or at least partially Christian community. Yes, when you say I go to church, they know pretty much know what that means. Yep, you know.

Speaker 2: 52:22

It might be different for if you're reformed or non-denom, or Baptist or you know it'll change, right, but we're all we're speaking mostly the same language when it comes to the not. Our salvation issues Right? Yep, not. Are salvation issues right? Yep, there's, there's the, the the second priority, or things that aren't salvation based um, but we're all pretty much speaking the same language. Utah is the opposite um of of michigan. So michigan is predominantly christian. It's about I think it's still under 2% Mormon. Last time I checked, Michigan, michigan.

Speaker 2: 52:58

Yes, utah is the exact opposite. It's, I believe, 1.2% Christian, and St George, the town that we were in, is the only city in the country that is still over 50% Mormon. Wow, so with the LDS faith and that's a whole other rabbit hole we can go down um. But if you say, hey, jesus loves you, they're like I know, isn't it awesome? And it's like well, no, no, no, no, no. They're talking about a totally different jesus.

Speaker 2: 53:29

Their theology is totally different yeah, it's crazy and I don't know how much of that alec did cover or didn't, so I don't want to repeat all the stuff that he said, but it made for a very different Christian experience. It was a first of all, the spiritual warfare and I know people say that a lot but that's really what it was the day-to-day spiritual confrontations that we had. You know, there I'm a pretty bubbly person, usually smiling, usually being too loud. I'll tell you, I was the closest I've ever been in my life to depressed when we were in Utah. You, yeah, I know, yeah, isn't it crazy? That is crazy, but it just was, you know, and Pastorared was so amazing at helping, kind of pastor us and shepherd us through this.

Speaker 2: 54:20

You know, there there are different because we don't fight against flesh and blood, yep but against powers and principalities. Right, I grew up here, so the spiritual I, I'm familiar with the powers and principalities that we fight against here. Right, in my faith walk, in my spiritual disciplines, you know, prayer, life, prayer, all of these things are accustomed to what it's like here and without experiencing it it's hard to describe. But he said we needed to be in a whole different game of spiritual warfare and spiritual preparation. Right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:55

So really kicking your prayer life into gear, spending more time in the Word, doing all of these things, because the reality was Utah is a place where the enemy has had a stronghold, where really this cult has. The enemy has had a foothold there for years, for I mean centuries. You know, and now we're here, and we're here taking ground.

Speaker 2: 55:18

There's a few other Christian churches there that are absolutely doing the same thing, so I don't mean to belittle the other Christian efforts there, but really our heart was we can argue doctrine all day, but I'm not going to save somebody. Your pastor is not going to save you. It doesn't matter if you're in Utah or here. Only Jesus can do that and there is. I could preach for four hours and sing 18 worship songs and it's not going to get you any more saved and it's not going to change your life. But a moment in the presence of the Holy Spirit, that's what brings eternal change and true transformation, right so that was our heart was God.

Speaker 2: 55:55

We want to say what you would have us say transformation, right. So that was our heart, was god we? We want to say all say what you would have us say right. And we want to teach people the word. But more importantly, god, we just want them to experience your presence, because that's something where they might have the same they work out of the king james bible, um, so they might have some of the same words and maybe have the same book, but god, god, they don't have your presence.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Where does their theology come from if they're reading out of the King James? Because I know some of it gets really out there, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:26

So I don't remember exactly dates, but so Joseph Smith is the creator of Mormonism. Originally, this all started actually on the east side of the country, in upstate New York.

Speaker 1: 56:39

Yeah, which is crazy. I did know that, and then I don't know why they all went to Utah, but I guess they did.

Speaker 2: 56:45

So, from what I understand I don't remember exactly what denominations, but he grew up in like a divided Christian home, so say Baptist and Lutheran or Presbyterian, and, you know, pentecostal it's I don't remember exactly what it was but his parents were two different denominations and I believe his father stopped going to church, so. But it was also this this the Protestant church was splitting into all of these different little sects, right, and it's a unfortunately. And this is where something else that really was revealed to me while we were there, or not revealed, just that I came to understand is how divided all the different denominations are and how heartbreaking that is, which is a whole different subject. But the story, what they'll tell you if you ask them, is is Joseph Smith said God, who is the true church? Right, I don't want to. I don't want to follow the wrong thing, god, I want to, I want to follow you and I'll tell you. In my, in my optimistic heart, I want to say that was a genuine prayer. Yeah, right, I want to believe that, because I think all of us have been there before. All of us have gone man, like the enemy's trying to discourage you, and you go, man, what if I'm in the wrong. What if I'm following the wrong thing? Right, yep, Been there. And God's always faithful to reveal himself to you, right? So his word says you seek him and you shall find him. So that's the difference.

Speaker 2: 58:12

But that started this kind of journey for him. And the story is god. And god appeared to him with jesus in his backyard, um, and revealed these golden tablets, the tablets of moroni. Moroni was a an old mormon, uh, prophet, he didn't actually exist, but that's their doctrine, because they believe, after Jesus passed away, he rose again three days later and was present around. And after those 40 days I think it is he went to the Americas.

Speaker 2: 58:52

Yeah, this is where it gets trippy, and this is the whole book of Mormon. So, after Jesus, before he ascended, he went to what is now Central America and there was I don't know how, but somehow a descendants of the Israelites in Central America that were white, with blonde hair. They looked like us, but either way, um, so jesus appeared there and their whole book of mormon is an account of jesus's time there. Um, god, and there was this big, but I mean it just mirrors bible stories like so incredibly clear, like their mormon temple is based off the temple of the old testament. Right, they have a celestial room that has a veil in it. That is supposed to be it's the Holy of Holies. They won't tell you it is, but that's what it is.

Speaker 2: 59:42

Yeah, that's where they go to spend time with God. You know, yeah, but so that all goes. So that's kind of the the different book that they use, their book of Mormon. Yeah, is the different book that they use. Their Book of Mormon is supposed to be an account of what happened when Jesus was in the Americas, which didn't happen, but then there was also a, with Joseph Smith being the first prophet they believe. So they have a prophet today. I don't know what his name is.

Speaker 1: 1:00:12

But they that's alive, yep, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:00:16

Yeah, he's, they actually have's alive. Yep, oh, okay, yeah, he's. They actually have something called General Conference. I can't remember if it's every six months or every year, but every Mormon takes it off work. They don't do anything. They all sit at home and watch this General Conference Because in this conference, similar to the Pope, their prophet will give the new revelation that God has given them so it can change their doctrine or their religion based on the word of the prophet, because God told the prophet that. So a little example of this One, the most common one, is polygamy. So that is actually why they were pushed so far west. They started in New York, but they use the same language of Jesus and God and all these things and they actually they believe in a different Jesus. They believe God was created by something.

Speaker 1: 1:01:06

And they believe that he was like a man on the earth and then, when we die, we become a God of our own planet. Is that true?

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

Yeah, kind of yeah, so we were. So. Mormon families are normally pretty large because, if we were Mormon, what we would?

Speaker 2: 1:01:20

what they would say is you and I were spirit children before we were born. But just how Jesus had a body and died so that he could go be at the right hand of the father, we have to come and be given an earthly body so that we can make it to heaven an earthly body so that we can make it to heaven Right. So we, they tell Mormon families you need to have a lot of kids, because if you don't have kids, they don't get to come and have an earthly body so that they can make it to the highest tier of heaven. I believe right now there's three. That's changed in all kinds of different things.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

But yeah, they believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. They both came down to the earth. Jesus modeled a life of how to make it to heaven, which is not wrong, but Lucifer modeled the opposite. And up until I think it was the 60s, and up until I think it was the 60s, they taught that if you followed the teachings of Jesus and lived by his example, your skin was lightened and if you didn't, your skin was darkened. So it's not a very diverse population in St George, utah, but like that has changed. Their prophet had supernatural revelation, and now that's not the case. But it's it's. It's you if, watching it, you can see that it's just a man-made counterfeit.

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

And that truth for them is subjective right, because now it's now they're having revelation that now they will marry a same-sex couple in the ward or the church, but they won't seal, which is eternal marriage, which also is not biblical. They won't seal a homosexual couple in the temple. So a sealing you can be married for this life, but if you get sealed you're married for eternity. And that goes back all the way back to some of the manipulation of back in the days of polygamy. I say that polygamy is still a real thing. It's a problem.

Speaker 1: 1:03:22

Yeah, but you were saying they started off in New York and then polygamy is what pushed them to Utah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:28

Yes, so their extreme beliefs. They would get pushed out of towns because they would have all the family, all of the wives, and these extreme beliefs and the men are extremely oppressive. Not not today. That's not a good representation.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:42

Mormons are actually probably some of the nicest people you'll meet because, their faith is ax based. I think they're they all. I should be more careful. I say that. I think they genuinely care about people, but there is also a. There is also a, there is an element to their. The Book of Mormon says you're saved by faith after all that you can do.

Speaker 2: 1:04:02

So, you need to do everything that you can so you're not going to meet a Mormon that's on his deathbed going I know I'm going to heaven, he'll say I just hope I did enough. Oh yeah, which is heartbreaking. Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2: 1:04:13

So there are people, there are LDS people, who genuinely care about others. Yeah it, woman is In the old Mormon, in the FLDS is what we call it now the fundamentalists. So I talked about sealing earlier. Kind of the mantra of the FLDS church was keep sweet, pray and obey. That's what they would say to the wives. Because if I were FLDS and I was married to four women, I could be married and only get sealed to three of them. So I internally, will be married to three of them and the fourth one will be by herself. She won't get to be with her children and her family in heaven.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

So it's this emotional manipulation and abuse really to make the women submissive and so all of that. They would get pushed from town to town to town until they got out to actually to Utah and and there was nobody out there. So they kind of set up camp and kind of made it a stronghold and especially the town we were in that there's a big FLDS community and there's a uh, I believe it's called Colorado city. I don't know why it's called Colorado city, but it's in Arizona. It was just South of us, um, and that's where um, a big, another big fundamentalist kind of commune is um or was, but yeah. So their radical beliefs pushed them all the way out into Utah because nobody else wanted them.

Speaker 1: 1:06:03

That's crazy. Yeah, I never knew that story. That's interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Do you know how many like over how many years it took for them to finally make it out to?

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

Utah. I know the temple that was in our town was established in 1857.

Speaker 1: 1:06:20

Okay 1857?

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

Yeah, 1857. I think it was starting to be built and I think in the 1870 something it was. What's the word? Like they prayed over it? It was. I can't think of the word. Like they prayed over it. It was. Oh, I can't think of the word that I'm dedicated is the word Thank you. It was dedicated, and once a temple is dedicated, no one who doesn't have their temple recommendation card can go inside. So, like you and I would not be allowed in.

Speaker 1: 1:06:54

Oh, is that why they open up certain temples, when they first get built, to the public, and then you can go check it out, but then, once it's dedicated, it's like, yeah, we're not allowed now. Exactly, okay, yeah because we're unholy.

Speaker 2: 1:07:05

And that's where the conflicting theology goes, because it's really. It's that, like I said, that temple is modeled after the Old Testament temple, when the presence of god was in the holy of holy, so it's, it's a whole different thing. But now, if you ask them, hey, but wasn't the veil torn at the crucifixion? They're like what, what do you mean? Like it's. So we actually had the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 1:07:29

Um, the temple in our town was renovated, so we actually got to walk through it and go see the whole thing, um, which was fascinating. Yeah, they're really cool. Yeah, they're they are structurally beautiful. Yeah, so, because it's, because it's, it's um works based like they're it's the best of everything, the best materials, the best designers, the bet, like everything has to be premium, the best art that they can get their hands on, yep and um, yeah, but we, we would go through and ask questions and it honestly broke my heart. Um, but there were people there who were volunteering to help facilitate this tour and there was, I think there's five covenants. I believe it's five, but that's where you go to make your covenants with God. And I asked them what are the five covenants? And they couldn't tell me. You know, and I just go like why don't you know, you know, but it's a but it speaks to the culture out there of like there is.

Speaker 2: 1:08:30

They'll tell you this isn't true, but like you're. For a long time they were taught you're not allowed to associate with an apostate. So if somebody, like a family member, leaves the church, like if it's a family, and the dad says this isn't it, I'm leaving, they will take his family from him and his whole life will be over because he left the Mormon church.

Speaker 1: 1:08:52

That's where, that's when you're brainwashed.

Speaker 2: 1:08:55

The issue is there are things that are technically illegal. Um right, like you can't discriminate against religion or belief, or faith right.

Speaker 2: 1:09:06

But we experienced that while in utah, like looking for buildings to have church in, like we got kicked out of the theater that we were in because we were holding baptisms and the owner of that space was LDS and saw what we were doing and they said that can't happen. And now, thankfully, they were gracious enough, they gave us a month to get out, but we were kicked out because of those baptisms. And you know, there was buildings that we would try to buy, that we would put offers in on um, like as a church, um, that wouldn't get accepted. But it becomes public information when the building sells and we would found it was sold cheaper, uh, to somebody else, because I ask you, what do you use it for? And we'll tell them we're a Christian evangelical church.

Speaker 2: 1:09:53

Oh yeah, I don't know if that's gonna, but everybody there is Mormon. So that was like back in the days of polygamy, which I say that it's not that long ago. I mean it's, if you want to get real. There is a our pastor who was out there, their neighbors. I remember driving to their house and driving past houses where there's a man and 15 wives and now you can spot them from a mile away because they wear different. They wear a certain kind of dress and they braid their hair a certain way, which is dictated by their prophet how they do their hair, that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

Yeah, so it's easy to spot them. But my pastor's kids had a friend who was young, I think 13, who one day was just gone Like she wasn't there to play, she wasn't there to hang out. And we come to find out she is married off and pregnant, but nobody's prosecuting, nobody's going to chase it down because it's well, we don't believe in it and we don't do it. But for whatever reason, we can't get anybody tried and punished for impregnating a 13-year-old girl. And this is recent. This is just before we moved back. Yeah, so it's happening right now, just before we moved back. Yeah, so it's happening right now, yeah, that's insane.

Speaker 2: 1:11:14

Yeah, and now there's a. There's an. Now. This is not LDS like the mainstream LDS. They don't practice polygamy and you'll get different things if it's wrong or not. Some people will say it's not wrong, but God doesn't allow us to do it anymore. Or you know so not wrong, but God doesn't allow us to do it anymore. But they don't practice it because it's against the law. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:11:38

But I'm talking about the fundamentalists, the fundamental LDS people. There's a documentary, I think, on Netflix called Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey and that happened in St George, Colorado City and in Texas. That gives you kind of a peek into what that all was like. There was a prophet who was married to a bunch of underage girls and it's twisted Like it's some dark, dark stuff. So, yeah, their beliefs are quite extreme, so it was a culture shock for us, right?

Speaker 2: 1:12:09

Well, yeah, it was a real roundabout way to get to like we had to fight for our faith out there you know. So our prayer life got a lot stronger, like our knowledge of the word, but also understanding what they believe and where they come from, Because if somebody doesn't feel understood, they're not going to listen to you you know you can talk at people all the time, but when somebody says, oh, they understand me, they know where I'm coming from. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:12:35

That it brings down defenses and and and people are a lot more willing to listen. Um, so it was, uh, you know the, the craziest thing we've ever done. Like I said, it was hard moving from family and being away from everybody, but it also, I mean, it was the best thing we've ever done. It trained us up for, I mean, for what we do now. You know, yeah, you guys were out there for a year. It was pretty much exactly a year. Our first Sunday, there was Easter. Our last Sunday, there was Easter. Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 1:13:13

Yeah. So it came down to Now. When we went, pastor Jared said are you willing to commit? To just commit to a year, just so we can have a solid year to build and grow and kind of reevaluate after the year is over. And I'll tell you, our intention was to stay. Like I, I'm a planner, I'm kind of a math science guy, so I almost kind of looking ahead and trying to kind of sort out what everything's going to look like, I thought we'd be there for five years at least really oh, yeah, yeah so I was.

Speaker 2: 1:13:45

We were working other jobs. Jasmine worked at an old navy and I worked at a like an outdoors sporting goods store. I was selling shoes, nice and fun it was fun. Uh, fun, I mean the selling shoes part was fine, but I, the conversations I had, what were what were more fun? Because everybody you got to think about it I'm a white guy with blonde hair that talks about jesus. Everybody assumes I'm Mormon.

Speaker 1: 1:14:10

Right, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:14:11

Like I'm just back from my mission so I'm all fired up. A mission being. They go on a two-year missions trip. It used to be required. Now it's kind of a little bit more lax, but once a guy turns 18, girls do it too. I think theirs is a bit shorter, but yeah, everybody thought I was mormon for like months, but once they found out I was christian, then I had these. They were some college age kids, so they were just a little bit younger than me, or high school age kids who, uh. So now they're starting to ask me questions oh so what do you believe? What? What do you mean? You lead worship. What is that?

Speaker 2: 1:14:48

because they have like a I think an organ player and they sing some so these kids that are asking are part of the mormon, oh, yeah, everyone out there is almost everybody out there is part of the mormon church gotcha, um, so then it kind of gave me this, this mission field of these, these people who are stuck with me for eight hours a day and we're all standing in the same department, and it made for some really cool conversations. I had a my boss was, and he wouldn't mind me telling you this he was a gay Mormon and I remember when I found out he was a what A gay Mormon.

Speaker 1: 1:15:26

Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:15:27

And I remember going. That seems like that would conflict. Yeah. What does that? And for a long time it did. Now there are prophets having revelation, where it doesn't conflict anymore. But I remember asking him and I was a little bit nervous because I felt like I was kind of prying. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:43

But because his family's Mormon and I said, man, what is that like for you? Like, what is? Is that a hard experience, you know? Is that, is that a hard like? What's it like with your family? And he was actually incredibly open with me. You know he said there's parts of it that are hard and it it gave me a great appreciation for, like meeting somebody where they are and loving them where they are, but also just kind of relying on the Lord to say God, like, give me the words to say here Like you know, I don't know how to reach this.

Speaker 2: 1:16:16

He was hurt by the church. So he said he still believed the doctrine but wasn't totally a practicing Mormon, and so it was. I mean, we invited him to our house for Thanksgiving and got to do all kinds of kind of cool stuff like that and built a pretty cool relationship with him and uh, you know, as much as I'd love to say it was, he got saved and all that. You know that didn't happen. But I, I truly believe that. You know. You know the Bible says some of us plant the seed. So my hope is, and my prayer is, that I was part of planting that seed. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:16:50

And somebody's going to be there to water it and yeah, god's chasing after him. But yeah, it was. Yeah, just I mean we miss it, we miss Utah. We loved it out there.

Speaker 1: 1:17:03

And you were so reluctant in going at the beginning.

Speaker 2: 1:17:06

I know, that's exactly it, man.

Speaker 1: 1:17:09

All right. So, lastly, then you come back after a year. Is there a reason why you wanted to come back or were called to come back?

Speaker 2: 1:17:16

Yeah, so I never wanted to come back.

Speaker 1: 1:17:23

Oh gotcha.

Speaker 2: 1:17:23

I actually pretty now. I say that I mean there was a part of me that like I wanted to be by my family, you know, and be around you know. So the community that we had, um, so, but I honestly I viewed that part of me like as my flesh, you know, because the the big thing that I honestly was kind of scared about there is where it says he who puts his hand to the blower and looks back isn't fit for ministry. And I was like you know, I went through kind of this eight month journey of like I can't even think about Michigan or else I'm looking back and that makes me unfit for ministry, you know, and I was like really strict with myself, like I wouldn't talk about it. I wouldn't like I would talk to people from here but I wouldn't tell people I missed it, I wouldn't tell people that I thought about it. I would like that was my secret, like I gotta fix this, you know, um, and then you know the, you know the Lord takes you by the hand and kind of graciously walks you through some of the stupid things we say like that, like that's, that's not what that means, you know. And he showed me. No, this is. This is what makes this a sacrifice for you, josh, is that you love those things and you love those people and you laid them down. For me, that's. And so I kind of came to this thing of oh, it's, it's okay to miss it there, that's what makes this cost something, that's what makes this, what makes my life sacrificial, right, you know. So, then, everything in my life and it still is, you know, it's, it's okay where what I believe that God wants to bless me, right, jesus came that we would have life and have life in abundance.

Speaker 2: 1:18:57

Now that scripture gets twisted and pulled and manipulated to fit all kinds of false doctrines, but I truly believe that means god, jesus, god wants to bless us, right. I do not need to go out of my way to find those blessings Right. So that what kind of what I've come to is? I want to live. Just like I said at the beginning of this, I want to live a life in submission. That's what I'm called to do is put my life in submission. I have free agency. I get to choose. Right, because I am his masterpiece, who was created long ago with a plan and a purpose. Right Ephesians 2.10, that God has created me with purpose. I get to decide if I walk in that or if I walk outside of that right and, like I said, there is not just one straight line to walk in that purpose. But my concern is not God. How are you going to bless me? It's Lord. I trust you to bless me and to care for my heart. You have that. I submit that to you. I'm just going to focus on being in submission to you, you know. So I got to this point of like I felt like my heart had healed from leaving.

Speaker 2: 1:20:00

We had some amazing community out in Utah we still do. I mean people that just blessed us so much and people were, I mean, praying prophetic things over us and had prophetic dreams for us that are like, I mean, just like we had never experienced. You know, just people really operating in this desperation and kind of the lack of christian culture makes the pockets that there are so incredibly rich. Yeah, you know, yeah, and uh, that was. It was so, so incredible for us to be exposed to that, because I've seen glimpses of it here. Right, I don't mean to make Michigan sound like it's dead. It's not. There are spirit-filled Christians here that are living their lives for Jesus. But it's a lot easier to live in a place of complacency here.

Speaker 1: 1:20:49

Oh for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:20:50

And just kind of live in comfortability. And so we got to the point of we're plugged in, we've got our people here in Utah where the team was growing Like we got into a building and we're seeing God kind of provide for us over and over and over again. And I remember we. So Pastor Sam called me while I was in Utah. I was there for about six months. He said hey, I know you, um, I know you, you committed to a year out there? I know you did. He said would would you just consider praying about what's happening after that year? He's like we'll wait for you. And uh, and I remember in that moment I was like, yeah, I'll pray about it. Click, I'm not going. You know, the same thing I did with Utah. And but you know, I'm trying to practice what I preach, right, it's not going to live in submission and God, I'm going to bring this to you in prayer and just try to seek you. And it was about three months after that, you know it's. I had been praying and it was the same thing. I was like God, if you're going to call us out of here, please don't, but if you're going to speak to my wife, you know, and, sure enough, one day we're driving kind of through the mountains into town and Jasmine goes. You know, life was, it's kind of really been on my heart recently and it was like these conflicting emotions of like the spiritual unity and the excitement of, yes, god's speaking the same thing to her and, honestly, this total crushing of oh. But that means I have to move. You know, and that was, I think it was harder for me to move to Michigan than it was for me to move to Utah, cause there was no thing that happened that kind of helped. That was the catalyst of launching us out of Utah into Michigan. It was very much a well, now I have to sit down with people and say this is just what God's calling us to do and what that thing was why we're here, I believe wholeheartedly is we were shown what desperation looks like and what it means to live a life that's sold out for Jesus. Right, and I truly I think I learned what it means to be.

Speaker 2: 1:22:58

When people ask me well, what's worship? How do you describe it? What do you? I try not to overcomplicate it, but I just go.

Speaker 2: 1:23:03

I want to be a Romans 12, one worshiper, right, romans 12, one says we're called to come and lay ourselves down as a living and acceptable sacrifice, right, or living in a holy sacrifice that he would find acceptable. This is our true way to worship him, yeah, right. So my, anytime I'm stepping on the platform, if I'm in my room, if I'm in a small group, it's God. I'm here to surrender myself to you, to surrender the things that I need. Those things don't matter, right, they do. God cares about the things in your life. There's no thing too small, right, he cares about every single piece. But I'm saying they don't matter as much to me as you do, right, the provision I need in this situation doesn't matter as much as me coming and bringing an offering of worship. Right, I'm not bringing a calf, I'm not bringing a goat, I'm not bringing a goat, I'm not bringing an ox that I'm sacrificing to you. I'm coming and I'm bringing a sacrifice of praise to you, right, and that?

Speaker 2: 1:23:58

We started a prayer and worship night out there you talk about like being thrown in the deep end. We started it as soon as we got there and I thought, oh, we'll do it for an hour. And our pastor was like, let's do like two hours. And I was like, all right, we can do that.

Speaker 2: 1:24:13

And next thing, I know Jasmine is part of a freedom group out there, like a spiritual freedom kind of thing, and it's on the same night as our encounter nights of prayer and worship. So for the first three or four months, it is just me every Tuesday with an acoustic guitar, leading this prayer and worship time. When I tell you, I was developed spiritually but also practically in my instrument and learning to play by ear and um, but it just was. You know, we were, we were stretched and refined, refined into what we needed to be, to be able to. I really believe God deposited something in us there that we're supposed to bring back here, right, which is this sacrificial, selfless spirit of worship, right, and the freedom that comes from that right. I heard a great thing from this worship leader. He said when we get caught up chasing the miracle over the miracle worker, he said, when we get caught up chasing the miracle over the miracle worker, we've missed it.

Speaker 2: 1:25:13

You know, and I remember it was like this kind of this check. It wasn't like this I don't think conviction is the right word, but kind of like oh, I don't even know if I've thought of that before. You know what I mean. Growing up in this culture, it's we always want to see mighty moves of God and we want to see healings and we want to see and those things are happening, right? So I'm not trying to sound like a cessationist, but that can't be. That can't be.

Speaker 2: 1:25:39

Why we worship? Because of the things we get out of it. Cause that's self, that's selfish. Right, that's about me. It's I need something from this. So what can I get out of this, out of this, this thing, where what worship is is it is a selfless, something full of humility and making ourselves low and saying Lord, you are above us and you are worthy of all of our worship and all of our praise. So I feel like our heart and our understanding of that was refined and changed and now we're being planted back in the place where we go all right, we're on fire and we're going to light these people on fire too. Yeah, spiritually.

Speaker 1: 1:26:14

Right, hopefully, yeah, yes.

Speaker 2: 1:26:17

But so, yeah, man, it's, and I feel like I've been talking so much but it's still. I haven't even told the whole story. But we just God has moved us and changed us and refined us, and we still, every single day, I have to go Lord, we, we submit our lives to you, we submit our desires to you, um and God, we just trust you. We trust you with our everything you know and it's, I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Speaker 1: 1:26:46

All right, yeah, that's a good way to end. I think, all right, yeah, that's a good way to end. I think, there you go. Yeah, so live a life of submission and fight complacency. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 1:26:56

I do think that, like you said, when, when we grow up and around West Michigan, the Bible belt, it is easy to get comfortable and like, not like skip a day, like cause I, I'm one of those people who wants to live the Christian life every day, but it's like growing up as a kid when everybody's going to church. It's like you just don't really think about that because, everybody's the same and you're not really. You're not in this stage of like crying out to the Lord because everything's so good. Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:27:27

But anyway thank you for coming on. That was, but anyway thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2: 1:27:34

That was a really nice story, thank you. Thanks for having me. It was fun to listen to. I hope so. I feel like I made you listen the the whole time.

Speaker 1: 1:27:38

No, I thought I was just it was good it was. There was like some of the mormon history was interesting and yeah your story was great, so thank you, and I have no idea what I'm going to title this, but everybody else who's listening have a blessed week and thanks for listening.