Unhinged Christian
Welcome to Unhinged Christian Podcast, where we dive deep into the stories and perspectives that challenge conventional religious thought. Join me, Caleb Parker, your host and fellow seeker, as we embark on a journey to explore spirituality, faith, and humanity from a refreshingly open-minded perspective.
In each episode, I sit down with guests from diverse backgrounds and walks of life. From artists to activists, scientists to philosophers, we engage in candid conversations that transcend the boundaries of traditional Christian discourse. Together, we unravel the complexities of belief, doubt, and the human experience in the context of modern society.
Whether you identify as a devout believer, a skeptic, or something in between, Unhinged Christian offers a space for exploration and discovery. No topic is off-limits as we challenge assumptions, confront taboos, and embrace the richness of our shared humanity.
Join us as we navigate the intersections of faith, doubt, and everything in between. Tune in to Unhinged Christian and open your mind to a new dimension of spiritual inquiry.
Unhinged Christian
025: Spiritual Growth Through Harmony and Community. With Luiggi Lopez
Reflecting on past adventures in Dallas, like leading worship for Gen Z for Jesus and reconnecting with old friends, this episode is both heartwarming and humorous, proving that age is just a number when it comes to spiritual growth and community.
Journey with us as we recount our partnership with numerous Dallas churches and the joy of meeting influential figures like Marcos Brunette. Growing up in a Hispanic household where music was the heartbeat of our daily lives, we dive into unique worship experiences such as a week-long, non-stop worship tent. Evangelism efforts, community interactions, and the pursuit of mentorship from elder godly men are core themes explored in this episode. Our return to Dallas is about more than just leading worship; it’s about serving in any capacity and seeking a deeper spiritual connection.
How can one-on-one pastoral care transform lives? This episode explores the powerful impact of personal interactions within the church, from spiritual fatherhood to combating passivity within the community. We also discuss the profound influence of music on faith, the implications of media consumption on our values, and the importance of civil discourse when confronting religious extremism. By sharing personal stories and practical advice, we aim to inspire listeners to live a faith-driven life while navigating today’s cultural challenges.
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That's loud.
Speaker 2:Still Like you have it more than I did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, you're talking about for me, yeah Well, I think years of playing bass at church and having my in-ears, and I would always have the mix cranked up. Really.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do too, because I didn't think about it yeah. It is fun, I didn't think about it and then you're just there for the rest of your life. Yeah, and then you're cause? You're just here everything. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I would have the drums blasting, I would have the bass blasting and usually like the keys, and then I have a guitarist. The guitarist panned.
Speaker 2:Depends if they're good or not.
Speaker 3:Correct, and then I would have one singer. Yeah. Or if there's two worship leaders.
Speaker 2:You want to have both One over the other, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you want to know where you're at in the song. Yeah.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 3:And then I remember when I first started playing in the main at Rez. You know how there's a music director. The first couple of times I played in the main Without him.
Speaker 2:No, he was there. Oh, I mean like without him on your, in yours. Yeah, I would mute him before we started so that I could just do whatever I wanted. That's funny. I think I've done that twice, but it wasn't because of that. I just didn't do it cause I forgot. How do you forget something like that, Well, when you're starting. How do you forget something like that, Well, when you're starting?
Speaker 3:you don't really think about it. When you're new to it, you mean, yeah, you don't think about listening to the music director.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't really know who the music director was. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's crazy yeah. So what should?
Speaker 3:we talk about today. Well, let's talk about how you're going to Texas. How about that? Why are you going to Texas, Like? What's the reason?
Speaker 2:You know, people have been asking me that a lot recently, both believers and non-believers. The reality is, about two and a half years ago I felt the Lord say, just kind of highlight that, moving down to Dallas, and when thinking about making the move immediately, I just kind of felt a lot of discomfort. It could have been practical Not having any money saved, not knowing where I'm going to live, no connections, that kind of thing. But then there was also the spiritual side of just like sometimes you kind of know where you're going to end up but you don't know the path that you're going to take to get there. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, and essentially I just knew that it wasn't time. I just had that very strong feeling about that two years ago, by it's 2024. And, um, I kind of just felt like a green light kind of happened. Um, so it was pretty cool, cause I haven't really been thinking about it too much. Um, and whenever I would, you know, I just knew it wasn't time, wasn't time, and then I think it was around?
Speaker 3:Did an opportunity show up to go down there, or you're just like this is time, it's time, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so off of that I have been, you know, trying to reach out with a few people. I've talked to a couple of of guys down there, so it's been cool. Guys that are originally from Michigan.
Speaker 3:No, how'd you find them.
Speaker 2:I've been to Dallas before oh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, rekindled some friendships. What were you doing on there last time?
Speaker 2:I helped lead worship for this thing called Gen Z for Jesus. Aren't you a little old for Gen Z? I think I'm still part of it. Really, I don't know. 26, what do?
Speaker 3:you think well, I'm four years older than you, I'm a millennial yeah, you're, you're 30 already yeah, dude, I told you this before. It seems like every time you come on here we talk about how old I am. What I thought you're 29 every episode we've done.
Speaker 2:I've been 30 this is the time where you would cue like a little montage of all those times. It'd be fun. You probably don't have the footage, it's okay I do.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it was talked about on the episode or before or after we did it. Yeah, I just remembered it's been talked about yeah, I remember now, yeah, 30 thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i't know. Some people say I'm not, some people say I am. I don't really care, it's the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we partnered with a whole bunch of churches down there, including Upper Room, so I was pretty dope, grew up in a Hispanic home. So there's this guy. His name is Marcos Brunette. He's a really, really awesome dude. Name is marcos brunette. He's a really, really awesome dude. Um, I would listen to him like you know, six-year-old me in the bathtub playing with my toys or whatever. Yeah, my parents would always put music. Sometimes it was mozart, other times it was worship. If it was worship, he was all you know. Uh, I'd say 50 of the time he he was playing and this guy is in dallas yeah, he was in dallas.
Speaker 2:I don't know if he lives there or not, but he was there when you were there while I was there, yeah, so it was cool, got to talk to him for a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, he's learning english, so that's dope and um, yeah, it was pretty cool because typically with gatherings this big, I think there was several thousand, probably around seven, that gathered in the stadium, but leading up to it there was this like week long, 24-7 worship tent where they would worship and pray. So people would take shifts from like 10 am to 10 pm and then at 10 pm they would shut off the speakers and everything and they would just go acoustic, just because in the city there's some rules where you can't make this much noise.
Speaker 2:After working for 12 hours. People would do that. Sure, yeah, it was crazy. People came in from all over the country. We had our friends from California come. They sent a few teams. We did probably like around six hours of worship all together, not at the same time, it was probably like two hours sets, that kind of.
Speaker 3:Thing.
Speaker 2:And then you switch people yeah, and while we were down there, that's marcos was just there in the tent. It was pretty cool. Um, it was hot, it was fun. It's texas, texas, yeah, and then, um, we would go out and evangelize, so it was pretty fun. Bring people in. People that were christians were just like great, there's this thing happening. Bring your family, whatever.
Speaker 3:Did you ever have anybody yell at you when you were trying to evangelize?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I don't remember much about being yelled at in Dallas, but that happens when evangelizing. You get used to it, man. Yeah, yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 3:Still love them. You get used to it, man. Yeah, yeah, it's okay, still love him. So now you're going back to dallas not until october, but you're still going back. Is it to be a worship leader? Is that what you're planning on doing?
Speaker 2:um I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say it's to be a worship leader, um, it's to serve, in whatever capacity it may be, whether it is in music or not. I could be opening the door. Some personal things that I've desired is just to find more godly men, elder men. In my life I just feel like I've always had a lack of that. There's always been brothers that I know, that you know, have poured into me and have sharpened me a lot, but I really haven't had that elderly voice.
Speaker 3:Like a mentor yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm hoping to find, you know, a few men that can disciple me in that way. I'd love to get plugged in to a church, obviously serving whatever capacity, and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Have you ever thought about doing anything other than worship?
Speaker 2:Like what do you mean by that Dude?
Speaker 3:you should go down there and start a podcast.
Speaker 2:Should we do? Yeah, why not?
Speaker 3:What do I mean by that? Uh, so I'm talking about you're serving. There's different ways you can serve. You could be a greeter, you could be a youth leader, you could be the tech yeah you could be. Is there anything else that you would interest you in serving other than being a worship leader? Church-wise.
Speaker 2:Church-wise? Yeah, probably not, not even Pastor Luigi. You know, I feel like no.
Speaker 3:It's like the first time somebody's ever said no, I don't really want to be a pastor. It seems like these days, everybody wants to be a pastor and good for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, if you're called to it, awesome. But I would say for me it's always. I felt more aligned with God's will in my life, having conversations or being a pastor through one-on-one conversations. So this is actually something I realized a while ago. You know that parable of like oh, jesus leaves the 99 for the one. I've always kind of viewed it in this way of like there's, you know, pastor Dwayne, we love him. He is a pastor of hundreds of people, right, he is a pastor of hundreds of people, right, I would always.
Speaker 2:You know, I actually had this time where I was spending with the Lord, and I don't really do this too much. If you guys are good at imagination, try it out. But I would like try to imagine myself being physically with Jesus and allowing him to speak over me, and sometimes that would just be while my eyes are closed. Sometimes I would write, you know, just write in my journal, just start with what I would think that Jesus is saying. And then, next thing, I know I've written three pages of who knows what.
Speaker 2:It doesn't happen often, but I remember this night I was just kind of starting off with that and it was a letter to myself as a son, but it wasn't from me. So in that I was conscious for like the first half page and then I kind of blinked out and just started writing for like the first half page. And then I kind of blinked out and just started writing and I would say it was essentially me just giving up my hands and allowing the Lord to write through me, which was interesting. My handwriting isn't the greatest, but this time it was. It was actually a little bit better. Really.
Speaker 2:So I know, I don't know, think about it. But with that there was a specific piece that kind of stuck with me is that he's called me to not just be a father of children of my own blood, but to children that are not of my own blood. So when you think of that, my first idea or understanding of it was adoption, and I feel like I'm going to, you know, end up down that road, you know, once I have a family. But the second thing was you feel like you're going to adopt, yeah, okay, yeah, I feel like that's pretty heavy on my heart. But the second thing with that being a father to those that are not of my own blood was men, guys, one-on-one rather than having a group setting.
Speaker 2:Now don't get me wrong. Am I going to chicken out on talking to a bunch of dudes? No dudes, no um. But I've just seen way more fruit um in conversation with a man when it's just the two of us, rather than having it be a group.
Speaker 2:That kind of thing yeah, because then you can't form a relationship yeah, yeah and that, and sometimes I've even lacked in that, where the conversation is great, and then it's like all right, dude, see ya. And sometimes that's okay. Other times there is an invitation into more relationship with a guy and yeah. So I would say, when it comes to pastoral things, I just kind of feel myself more on the one-on-one and honestly, it kind of pairs well with evangelism, because instead of me just going down with the mission of like how many people can I evangelize to, it's more of this. Let me look at my heart and let me look at yours. Where are we? And just kind of going down that path, seeing what truths he has of God and what else is false, because many times they just have a misrepresentation of who he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that happens a lot. Yeah, I would say too. That's why, personally, I think that the smaller church is usually better, just because the pastor can have that relationship with most people in the congregation.
Speaker 2:I think that's important yeah, I think it is. I think it's really fruitful. When it's iron with iron, yeah, but if it's iron with wood, the iron's just gonna get dull. So essentially, what I'm saying is, if the community is passive, the pastor will eventually become passive too, depending on how influential he is. I've seen it.
Speaker 3:That's true. I never thought about that.
Speaker 2:Now I have seen pastors with a fire that doesn't end and transform communities, and it's been awesome, so I also want to mention that too.
Speaker 3:Are they like up front and like screaming and like not like a negative way, but an encouraging?
Speaker 2:way, just unashamed, unashamed.
Speaker 3:I think that's what we need. More is the unashamed faith and all of Christianity not just a church thing.
Speaker 2:I think people don't realize how big of an issue passivity is. We've talked about this before. Yeah, but we talked about it kind of in a man's life In a man's way, but just in general we didn't talk about it in a faith way of how you should be unashamed of it.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of times we are ashamed and it just it's it's no wonder the world is where it's at, because I just I've been thinking a lot about like different countries with Christianity and how in America it's actually declining Christianity it is, I don't. I think it's less than half at this point.
Speaker 2:I think during this period it's the first time missionaries are being sent to America more than ever before, because usually it's America From different countries. Yeah, Isn't that crazy? That is crazy, because usually it's America that sends out missionaries to other countries. This time it's vice versa, first time ever.
Speaker 3:It's because we're not doing anything here. We've been so high on our star-spangled freedom that we have learned to just enjoy it and not actually live sacrificial lives from it being a designated time to live a life with the message of go live a life of evangelism.
Speaker 2:It's a lifestyle. It's not just a thing you do, it's a daily thing. And it went from that preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth to let's take a field trip. You've never experienced jesus. You should go on a mission trip. No, if you don't know jesus, don't go to mission trips. Like yeah, things can happen. I am not. I also will retract that statement because jesus can do anything.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but the thing is not really for people to kind of witness. Poor people encounter God. It's less about you and more about those people that don't know who he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think a lot of times we're chasing an experience rather than trying to actually spread the gospel.
Speaker 2:And I will say, part of having relationship with Jesus is that experience, but I don't think that's the right time. Yeah. Because it's like, okay, if you have nothing, then what are you giving? That's the way I see it, Right, Because I've seen people where they bring their cousin who has never heard the gospel or has never had a relationship with Jesus and they go on mission trips. I've seen it happen. It's like what are you giving Nothing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're just there to witness and it's kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again I've also seen that happen. And I've also seen them come back wild. Come back wild and through experiential um moments with god, their lives have been transformed. So it's one thing um to know and it's another thing to experience. So I've seen it the other side of the coin as well, but most of the time it's the thing I mentioned earlier, not the latter yeah, yeah, I just can't believe missionary.
Speaker 3:They're being sent here crazy, yeah. And I've also noticed that in china, where for a long time christianity was actually banned, it just kept growing. So now I think there's about 44 million people in china who are? Christian and just keeps that. They try to stop it like I know. The latest thing they tried to change the bible to make it sound like jesus was a murderer. Whoa, I didn't know that yeah, and that's in china but it's like you cannot hide the truth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like it always comes back, no matter how much you try to foil it that's true, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, dude dang murder yeah, wow, that's to you know. Obviously it's to try to turn people off from christ and I'm sure it works on some people right. Yeah, I mean that happens here in america, where they try to make christianity out to be this bad thing, but again, there's always people who are like no, that's not.
Speaker 2:That's not how that goes. Yeah, I mean, I've talked to people recently where where they think a church is a church of, it's a place of perfect people, and it's not. You've been made righteous, but it's not because of your undoing.
Speaker 3:I wonder, where that comes from. Why do a lot of outsiders think that Christians are perfect and then, when they mess up, it's like whoa, that's un's unheard of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll speak from my own perspective, uh, because I had this conversation with my family. Actually, um, most of my family isn't christian. They've heard of jesus. They might have heard a version of a gospel that probably isn't the full, uh, the fullness of it is that the family that lives here?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay, yep and um, you know we would go to. I'd go to family events and stuff like that. My cousins would have their birthday parties after the afternoon, you know, once it's dark, you know the the little kids leave and then the real party starts and I just stick around just kind of hang out with my family. Wouldn't really do anything If there was food. I'm there.
Speaker 2:But with that they always just thought I was perfect and that I was a saint and all these other things, that I never did anything wrong when in reality I did. You know, I would struggle with pornography. I've struggled with lust, I've struggled with lying and manipulating people and stuff like that. And I think the biggest thing is, as a Christian, you kind of put up this facade. In the beginning, at least for me, where everything is okay and it's just been this weird or it was not, is right now. It was this weird thing of like.
Speaker 2:Since I'm a Christian, nothing bad can happen in my life. But it's shifted because I've realized no matter what really happens in my life, I will remain faithful, and that's what faith is. It's not. Will I be faithful in the good times? It's okay. When I'm being persecuted, will I actually stand for who I believe, will I actually stand to the truth and be able to defy any lies that are in front of me? That's faith, and we're not there yet. You know I've probably said this before American Christians have not really experienced persecution. We've experienced rejection. So when people are yelling at me, I'm not being persecuted, I'm being rejected. There's a huge difference. Persecuted, I'm being rejected. There's a huge difference. Um, and in the same vein of just being a Christian, I think what I was doing is I, I. I guess it all boiled down to vulnerability. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I wasn't vulnerable with my cousins. I wouldn't tell them about what I was struggling with. I wouldn't tell them about, um you, you know, any addictions that I had or anything like that. Um man, even there was a period in my life where I wouldn't cuss in front of family or friends, but I would cuss on my own, yeah you know, I'd be in my car and be listening to rap music and cussing, or I'd get pissed, road rage or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that probably is the basics of it. Going in a larger scale, I think it's just been through a lack of seeing who he really is. Many times, people haven't even stepped into church. What they've stepped into is actually more coming across people who call themselves Christians. They see them as hypocrites and they're just like oh, they act perfect, so I need to be like that in order to walk in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, they act perfect. So I need to be like that in order to walk in. Yeah, back to the. You said you used to listen to rap music. Here's a question. What do you think Christians should do with secular music? Is there any benefit to it? Is it just?
Speaker 2:No, why would you not glorify God?
Speaker 3:I know, but not everybody thinks that way. Some think that's why I think about it. So do you listen to secular music now?
Speaker 2:I used to a lot.
Speaker 3:How do you, how did you fully get rid of it?
Speaker 2:because I'll admit there is sometimes where I still listen to it, but it's it's starting to fade, just because it's not don't get me wrong, if it comes up in a party, I'm not gonna be like, be like, oh my gosh, I need to cover my ears, I need to leave. Yeah, this is not holy Like no, not like that but in my car. Why would I not want to spend time with them? People experience God through different ways, right? Some people it's more through teaching and reading of the word. For others it could be through podcasts, it could be through music, it could be through literally anything. People like nature.
Speaker 3:I like nature.
Speaker 2:I do agree.
Speaker 3:But I also think that everybody should have some root in the word.
Speaker 2:I fully agree with that. I'm saying it's easier in some aspects.
Speaker 3:For me it's music.
Speaker 2:I can experience the Lord through worship easier than I can experience him through scripture. Am I saying don't look over scripture.
Speaker 3:No, that's what it sounds like.
Speaker 2:Okay, let me clarify. I'm kidding. Let me clarify Read your Bible, there we go um. So with that, um, yeah, I mean it was hard at first because I'm like oh, but this guy, but that guy, 21 pilots blah, blah, blah, and it's always catchy and fun catchy it's fun. But then I had a thought, and I think this is actually what kind of got me to stop. So lucifer was the director of music, do we?
Speaker 3:know that for sure, or is?
Speaker 2:that just speculation.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure that's the thing, yeah momentary, uh, intermission, we'll be back.
Speaker 3:We'll be back. Was, we'll be back.
Speaker 2:Was Lucifer.
Speaker 3:Because I hear that all the time and I can't find the Bible verse of Lucifer being the music angel.
Speaker 2:Just a quick search. I'm not even reading through it, I'm just going to go for it. Should I or should I read it first? Reading through it, I'm just going to go for it. Should I or should I read it first? Go through it, just do it.
Speaker 2:Ezekiel 20, 13 of the KJV and the NKJV seems to hint that Satan was involved with music in heaven. It says the workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day that you were created. Something popped up for you on the day that you were created. Something popped up, although the exact meaning of this difficult Hebrew text is uncertain. There may have been such instruments in heaven, but there is no evidence outside this verse to verify it. Revelation 5, verse 8 and 15, verse 2 refer to harps, but not timbrels or pipes. Let's see here the two scriptures passages that describe Satan before he fell are Ezekiel 28, 12 through 19 and Isaiah 14, 12 through 15.
Speaker 2:Satan was the anointed cherub Ezekiel 28, 14. He was adorned with every precious jewel imaginable. He was a model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty Ezekiel 28.12, likely. He was the highest of all angels. He was persuasive enough to convince one-third of the angels to join him in his rebellion Revelation 12.4,. Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to stand up to him without the Lord's help. Jude 9. Satan fell because of pride. He did not like being second best, he wanted to be God. He said in your heart I will ascend to heaven. I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit enthroned on the Mount of Assembly on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Speaker 2:Isaiah 14, 13. Um, there's another part it says was Satan the head musician? This cannot be answered Definitely, um, or sorry, definitively, uh. Scripture does not say enough about what his duties were in heaven. Considering the fact that the angels constantly worshiped god in isaiah 6, 3 and revelation 4 8 it is possible that satan led that worship. One thing is for sure for satan to rebel, despite having such an exalted position in close relationship with god, the devil is surely due his eternal destiny. Revelation 20. That was kind of funny, I mean, it's true, but yeah um.
Speaker 2:What a way to end yeah, so we don't know, we don't know for sure we don't but we can say that he probably did have some sort of authority, since he was the highest of highs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we can also. We also know that music is a powerful tool. Yeah, it can send you into a trans, like blues music. Yeah, like what it does, like you just watch a guitar player, if you feel sad.
Speaker 2:You just listen to a little bit of you know sad music.
Speaker 3:So where's that? Livia Rodrigo? For me, what? No way dude sad music, don't worry is that liviel?
Speaker 2:rodrigo for me, what, what? No way, dude. I was gonna say something like um, who would I listen to? Oh city in color. Have you ever heard of them? No, I think christian, no dude, I'm just kidding. City in color have you ever heard of bleep, bleep?
Speaker 3:no, it was a joke, it didn't work.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry because we're not going to give any names that aren't Christians here oh, that's, true.
Speaker 3:Yes, right, so bleep them out right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyways, going back to what I was talking about, just having that idea, whether he was or wasn't director of music, I was like if he had that much influence, whether he was or wasn't director of music, I was like if he had that much influence and he was good at it, you know he was the perfect angel or whatever, and the Bible says that the ruler of this earth is the devil. I was like why would he stop making music? So the way I started thinking about it and I think this might have tagged into a little bit of you know, when you hear that one singer, songwriter, gave his soul to the devil, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah yeah okay, I think it kind of paired in with that a little bit yeah, it was just an idea.
Speaker 2:I was like, what if the devil is behind all secular music?
Speaker 3:and if that's it, then that makes sense as into why it's so attractive and why I like it so much yeah so it's because it's feeding the flesh yeah, yeah and it's, and it's easy for him to get you because it can be so catchy and then you really realize what you're singing. Yeah, like all pumped up kicks dude that that song is messed up. That's crazy, but it's so catchy yeah and it sounds fun and upbeat, but then it's just like yeah, it sounds like jolly and he's talking about death yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So with that thought, I was like I should probably stop. So, um, I slowly started letting go of some artists that I would listen to and eventually just came to a stop altogether. And I think it was this you can't be empty, you can, only you're always going to fail yourself. Um, jake actually talked to this. Jake Blaukamp, he talked to me about this once. I'm not sure if you've ever shared it to you, but there's like a box, there's a bowl in every single guy. Oh, the four, yeah, yeah. Remember that yeah.
Speaker 2:And I guess it would apply in this way. It's like you're going to fill yourself with the desire of music, sound whatever, going to fill yourself with, uh, the desire of music, sound, whatever. And I think what happened I got lucky is it wasn't necessarily that I was emptying myself of that, it was more that I was filling myself more with jesus and, as in a response, I wanted to use a time that I would listen to music to listen to worship. Yeah, so it began to fill up with something holy rather than something unholy. So, um, and then I kind of started really listening to the lyrics of songs, kind of like what you were talking about, because most rap music today is about yes, yeah yeah, exactly worldly pleasures yeah that's a good way to encompass everything.
Speaker 2:I was just gonna go straight for it, but yeah, and it's like dude, why would I be? Okay? Think about it this way. Let's say you're married and you're listening to drake or you're listening to um, what's that one guy, the one that got deported? We're like, oh, he's from england, 21 savage, I didn't even know about that. Yeah, he got deported, I think. I'm pretty sure he was why, because he's not from here. So neither is justin bieber true, he's from canada does he have papers I don't know.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe not Like the visa or whatever, yeah, something like that. Anyways, dude, all they're talking about is sleeping with multiple women. How is that honoring your wife? How is that helping you? It's not. It is weird, it literally just explodes. Every sort of thing you've been probably dealt with in your life lust-wise.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it probably feeds it. Honestly it does. You start to listen to that, it puts it in your head and you don't really realize it. But it's still like a little seed that's planted and you're like thinking about it and it starts to grow.
Speaker 2:Oh, it does, yeah, and it's like, okay, christianity aside, what do entrepreneurs do? Sell things, what do they do in their free time? They're listening to. Um, what's this guy's name? Guy with the long curly hair, kind of jacked, always has the tape in his nose oh, dude, I know who you're talking about. Oh, that's funny and they listen to these guys. Yeah, um, what's the other guy's name? The bald one, chris williamson? No, I actually don't know who that is.
Speaker 3:He's not, he's not exactly, it's buzz cut.
Speaker 2:The guy with the tight shirts, joe Rogan.
Speaker 3:No, not Joe Rogan, the guy with the tight shirts, yeah, and he's a salesman.
Speaker 2:He goes like this Something Elliot, billy Elliot, elliot. If you guys are listening to this, I bet you guys are laughing. Elliot, elliot, listening to this, I bet you guys are laughing.
Speaker 3:Elliot, this is why I need a third person, so they can just look stuff up while we're talking, but I can't, I don't know who this sales guy, elliot sales guy.
Speaker 2:Let's see what comes up.
Speaker 3:Elliot sales Andy Elliot, andy Elliot, let me see.
Speaker 2:I don't have Instagram, so it's popping up couldn't you just google it?
Speaker 3:this guy I don't think I've seen him a lot, but I get the, I get the.
Speaker 2:Oh, did you see this?
Speaker 3:no I could I? Saw past the low battery. Okay, yeah, that guy, just so they listen to these guys. So what?
Speaker 2:I'm getting at is um. What I'm getting at is you essentially become what you consume. Yeah, if you're trying to get better at bass, what do you do? Practice what do you do to practice?
Speaker 3:What do I do to practice?
Speaker 2:How do you start? I pick it up, okay. And then what I put my? I put the strap. How many years have you been doing it? For? 15, 16 years, go back 13 years ago. What would you do?
Speaker 3:I'd take it out of the bag, put it on my lap and plug it in.
Speaker 2:Go back 15 years ago. How did you know what to practice? I don't know.
Speaker 3:I had somebody teach me.
Speaker 2:So you heard it? Did you ever watch any YouTube videos?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do that now, I did that all the time. So, essentially, what I'm getting at is, yeah, the consumption. What are you listening to? What's going into you through your ears, what's going in your mind? It's a lot of the way I see it, there's a lot of subtle things that we just don't realize, um, and eventually it's like even what do we watch that kind of thing? Um, something that I've been convicted of a little bit, a little bit more than a little um was murder, and how null I've become to it.
Speaker 3:um, I am a huge the way you phrase that you've been convicted of murder. Whoops, I, I get what you're saying, okay to clarify shows uh yeah, netflix crime, anything related with that.
Speaker 2:It's so, so intriguing. It just gets me and I'm just like what? Who did it?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to figure it out as I'm watching the show and then I'm just like hold up, I could care, like I'm not even caring the fact that this person in real life was actually killed and I'm just trying to guess who actually got it. So, instead of being allowing my heart to be sensitive to these things and I'm not saying I'm going to cry over every single crime show I watch that's not what I'm getting at, it's more in the real life situation. Yeah.
Speaker 2:How is that benefiting me in any way? How is this helping my heart? How am I protecting my heart? How am I safeguarding my mind? Um, you know, those competition shows that they do every now and then, um think alike. Um, you know, when they like send people to islands and stuff yeah, like survival or survival yeah yeah okay, back then I thought when you know, when I was younger, they're awesome, they're fun to watch, and now it's just become a bunch of women that aren't dressed enough. Yeah, well, they know it sells yeah but then what does it does?
Speaker 2:what does it do to me, right? So it's just like again, subtle things that people don't really think about, and I've had to step away from that and just like Hmm is it really worth watching that kind?
Speaker 3:of thing. Well, I don't even own a TV. I do. So that's that's how I do it. I don't, I don't watch anything.
Speaker 2:I don't know how you do it, dude. Once in a while I'll watch a movie on my laptop, but it's always like a free youtube, one with ads, really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dude, there's websites you watch like free movies. That's illegal.
Speaker 2:That's breaking the law it's okay, oh yeah dude, you think I'm gonna pay 70 to watch a ufc fight?
Speaker 3:heck, no, there's websites hey, ethan, when you listen to this, you should invite luigi the next fight night.
Speaker 2:There you go ethan watches the ufc yeah, he gets the whole pole barn.
Speaker 3:Maybe I shouldn't, maybe he doesn't want me to tell you this, oh well, I am oh and what's up, ethan, I haven't seen you in a while. Love you, dude he, yeah, he's actually.
Speaker 3:You know where he's hiking, right no he's hiking the continental continental divide right now. So it starts in new mexico, goes all the way to montana. Why, I don't know. That's just what he does because he's done the appalachian trail, oh. And then two years ago he did the pacific. He does Because he's done the Appalachian Trail, oh yeah. And then two years ago he did the Pacific Continental Trail and now he's doing this one. So he's just walking every day. Yep, he does like 20, 30 miles a day.
Speaker 2:When does he eat?
Speaker 3:You've seen him. He doesn't eat, yeah. I'm so confused. Did he? Save up for this or something. Yeah, he saves up, then he goes and does it. Oh, okay this is third time.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised, bro dude.
Speaker 3:I have not seen ethan in so long that's true, was it probably when we were living together?
Speaker 2:you saw him last, yeah yeah, I was gonna say something that he did, but our old landlords might find something. The chicken, oh yeah. Chicken that we would make is really good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not the only time I've ever done that, Dude. One time my friend Stefan, his mom made this pork chop and it was so gross that I couldn't eat it, but I didn't want to throw it in the trash because I was afraid, yeah, yeah, because they open up, there's a full pork chop in the trash. It's like, okay, who did it? Yeah, so I lifted up his mattress and threw it how old were you I?
Speaker 3:couldn't drive yet okay, so that's better, that's better, that's better I probably was like anywhere from 13 to 15 around that time.
Speaker 2:What made you think that was a good idea? I?
Speaker 3:I didn't think his mom cleaned that house so I was like she's not going to find it.
Speaker 2:Hold up. Don't you have a YouTube account?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not disclosed. What is it called I? I forgot I don't even remember well, I remember. I'm not gonna say dude, that was funny. They're so terrible those videos. How old were you? Like 12, I don't even know. There's one where we made like a molotov cocktail. It worked. It's pretty cool, wow. But it was also dumb, because we're on the kent trails throwing a glass bottle with fire in kent trails.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how did that not go bad?
Speaker 3:grace of god, yeah I guess, so you know, because it's like there's trees everywhere, yeah, but also it has to be a really hot flame to start up trees, yeah, and we're on the pavement. It's just if it were to spread and if there were leaves or something and it goes from there, then yeah, we're in big trouble. But thankful it didn't happen yeah, it was still dumb because it's just glass. Like what were we thinking?
Speaker 2:yeah, I don't know what were you thinking. We probably weren't. Anyway, what?
Speaker 3:were we talking about just before that show is tv shows. How did we get there? I don't know what were you thinking? We probably weren't 12-year-olds. Anyway, what were we talking about just before that Shows TV shows.
Speaker 2:How did?
Speaker 3:we get there.
Speaker 2:Safeguarding what we listen and what we watch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then all of a sudden, Ethan we're talking about Ethan Survival. Oh yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know Either way, safeguarding what you're watching with TV music, cause I've been thinking a lot lately on the verse do all things to glorify God. And I agree, I don't know how we can glorify God when we're watching these dumb shows, especially on netflix, like the domer show that came out and it wasn't even a documentary, it was a show, dude, I watched about him glorifying him I think I
Speaker 3:watched one episode and it was a lot yeah, but they're trying to make you like sympathize with him. Oh really, maybe sympathize is the wrong word, but in a sense like why? Why is there a show about him? Like there's no way you're trying to make him look bad, it's just like you're trying to make him.
Speaker 2:Intriguing is a good word, I think I will say it was definitely intriguing, like I was grossed out. First episode. It was disgusting, um, and I did want to watch another episode, but I'm like there's no way I can do this. And when we want to watch another episode, but I'm like there's no way I can do this. And we used to watch Riverdale. Okay, riverdale actually was good, but then it just went.
Speaker 3:It was good, but well, it was very lustful.
Speaker 2:I will say that much From the beginning no, maybe not it was like a rare every now and then, okay, let's skip a few minutes. You know like, hey, let's talk about something else while things are happening. Um, but what was it like? I don't know why season six is kind of on my mind. I don't know what's in there, but I feel like later in the in the lifespan of of that show, it got pretty bad. I stopped watching it.
Speaker 3:It seems like it was earlier than that, but I just didn't stop watching it. Because of the lust problem, I stopped watching the demonic stuff too. The demonic stuff was that was actually hidden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was actually pretty crazy too. The demonic stuff was that was actually hidden. Yeah, that was actually pretty crazy. Now that I think about it.
Speaker 3:It was really crazy, yeah, but I stopped watching because it kept being the same storyline oh, there's like why'd you bring up riverdale then being the same storyline, what? Do you mean? Why did I bring it up? Because I just thought it was funny that we used to watch it at that house. Oh yeah, but it was just, it was dumb, because it would, we went from dahmer to riverdale and you stopped watching it because it was repetitive back then.
Speaker 3:Now I wouldn't even watch it, for what's in it is what I'm getting at, but I was just trying to. Uh, I see what you're saying rant about it I was giving a rant like a rating.
Speaker 2:Who's your favorite character, Cheryl?
Speaker 3:obviously, guys-wise, it was the Sprouse twin, whatever his name was in the show, cole's dope Jughead, Jughead Jones.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I forgot his name in the show. Yeah, that was fun Good times. Yeah, yeah, trying to think about what else would happen.
Speaker 3:The safeguarding yeah, don't watch TV. We're talking about glorify God and all that we do. But there's, like I know, worship leaders and I know plenty of them I'm not going to use names, obviously that watch certain shows like modern family. I don't know if you know that show I've seen like clips of it here and there.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a homosexual couple in the show and it's and it's basically like, how are you like supporting that show and then you're leading people into worship? I just don't have you seen deadpool. No, I haven't. Have you seen, have you?
Speaker 2:yeah, luigi, it was a. It was a good movie, dude I feel like too also back. I feel like spoiler alert.
Speaker 3:I'm kidding yeah, real spoiler. It's only in every commercial that is back no, I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:I was going to actually say something that was in the movie oh, what was it? Spoiler alert no no, I can't do that to the audience. You're welcome all right.
Speaker 3:Either way, movies like that are bad. I feel like a lot of times Christians are like well, it wasn't politically correct, so it's good. That doesn't matter. I know it doesn't, but I'm saying I think a lot of people especially.
Speaker 3:People actually say that People don't come right out and say, oh, it's christian, because it's not politically correct. They don't say that. But I feel like a lot of christians when they hear someone talking or speaking or there's a movie, and because it's not politically correct, all of a sudden that justifies them being able to watch it yeah because in this our society is politically correct right now.
Speaker 3:So anything that challenges society is now seen as Christian, almost because I think of the rejection that it has caused. But that's not the case. Just because something's politically incorrect doesn't necessarily make it good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would. I see what you're saying and I stand with you to a certain extent. Am I saying gay couples is good? No, I'm not saying that. Watching shows that aren't about Jesus or something like that. For example, with my girlfriend, we watch this Is Us. It's a great show. We're about to finish the sixth season. I'm excited to find what happens in the last few episodes. Does that have anything to do with Jesus? No, it doesn't. One of the girls, one of the kids, she comes out as a lesbian, she likes females or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I was pretty. I was like, okay, this is unnecessary, uh, in my opinion, but did that stop me from watching it? No, it didn't. You know, I still watch it. Um, now, would that say? Would I say that I am less? Um, how would I say? Would I say, would I say that I'm not allowed to worship because I watch? This Is Us no.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm not saying they're not allowed to worship or lead worship. I'm just saying if we're called to glorify God in all that we do, obviously we're going to fall short of that. We're not going to do everything perfectly, but sitting down and watching a show for pleasure, like that, it's pretty obvious that we can't be glorifying God. So how do we reconcile? That is my question.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I feel like to a certain extent, I've wrestled with that for what I was talking to you about the crime shows. Yeah. Like that doesn't glorify God whatsoever. So maybe this could be a, you know, a sharpening moment for me to be like what am I actually watching? Yeah.
Speaker 2:It could be that it probably is that, to be honest, do I want to let it go? No, I don't. But I think that there is a, and I think ultimately, it's like why are you doing this? Because if you're just doing this, just because the bible says so, um, or because caleb said so, I would say don't do it. Don't do what like, don't stop like if.
Speaker 2:If someone's listening to this and it's like oh, I guess I shouldn't do it, don't do what Like, don't stop Like if someone's listening to this and is like, oh, I guess I shouldn't do this because, Caleb said so Right, yeah, well, no, but if it's really, if your heart posture is, I want to honor you, God, and I'm going to give up this time that I would always have set aside to watch Netflix 30 minutes before I go to sleep, then do it. Yeah, I agree, it's like video games. I still play video games every now and then, Loser.
Speaker 2:I need to decompress sometimes. Okay, I'm just kidding. Is that glorifying to God? No, I'm killing people in video games and stuff like that. Call of Duty, fortnite no, I don't really play Fortnite. Dude, you're lame. I used to Rocket League every now and then, yeah, fifa, and that's pretty much it, and maybe an hour a week.
Speaker 3:Oh's dropped, yeah, it's dropped, yeah, that's almost nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hardly play.
Speaker 3:I used to play a lot more if I had a system, it'd be an hour every hour if I was playing like I love video games, yeah so, yeah, I think it's a lot has to do when it comes to decisions.
Speaker 2:A lot of it has to do with heart posture, because otherwise it's pointless.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, I don't think you should just stop watching your shows, to just stop watching them because you think something magic is going to happen. But like you said, if you're like I'm not glorifying God, glorifying god, but then my other thing is I don't think those people have the right to complain about and I don't think they usually do but just don't complain about why america is the way that it is when you're spending your time and money and stuff like that when you could be spending your time and money towards better things.
Speaker 3:That's my thing too yeah because whether or not it's a sin, is it a sin? I don't necessarily think so if you're watching a show, but it's, I mean like, was it a sin for us watching jake and josh? I don't know, because that was clean the sponge bob squarepants well, there's, you know which one?
Speaker 2:you think so?
Speaker 3:when he is. There's an episode where he's like I got the balloons and it's soap and then he says to gary he's like don't drop them. Like there's little hidden things in there that's not the only thing that's other ones I can't think of. It's like shrek yes and yes. But Shrek is a little bit more on the other side and that's the thing that sucks, because I love Shrek. Shrek was funny.
Speaker 2:Shrek is one of my favorite movies. I mean, I watched it all the time as a kid and never understood anything until I became an adult.
Speaker 3:But then there's stuff in there too, like Lord Farquaad Do you know what his name is supposed to be?
Speaker 2:Like I can't say it Once we're off camera. You want to know? I actually don't.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, I'll tell you, not right now, but then there's obviously inappropriate stuff in that movie too.
Speaker 2:You know what was a crazy show. Courage, the Cowardly Dog, yeah all those cartoons have stuff in them. That one was crazy, just straight up wild.
Speaker 3:I wasn't allowed to watch it, so I really don't know.
Speaker 2:I wasn't either. What happened? I watched it every now and then. It was scary. I don't know why I'd watch it, because I really didn't even actually look at the screen. It was weird, anyways.
Speaker 3:I don't even know what we were.
Speaker 2:We were talking about shows.
Speaker 3:Shows how you glorify God, not complaining about.
Speaker 2:You were talking about how we're just like, oh, look at this world and how it is, yeah, and I'm just saying like don't complain about it.
Speaker 3:If you're going to spend your time and or money on stuff like that, like when you give money to netflix, you are in one way or another giving to a company that does not like you because they promote so much degeneracy. You can't tell me that they love christians isn't the chosen on it I don't know, but that doesn't make up.
Speaker 3:You can't just have like. Like, if I have a, a bible and then a witchcraft book, are you gonna call me? Is that okay? Is that balanced? No, what if I have two bibles in a witchcraft? Just like it's the same idea? Like, just because the chosen's on on there doesn't mean that Netflix is a good company. Also, the View really likes the Chosen, so I question why? Why does the View praise the Chosen? They hate everything that has to do with Christianity and law.
Speaker 2:I honestly don't listen to a lot of anything like that.
Speaker 3:I don't either, but it shows up on Christian YouTube every once in a while. People do reaction videos to it so I watch it sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, I guess. What would you? What do you do to impact America, michigan, grand Rapids? As a. Christian living in a secular world.
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, I go to church, which is obvious. I mean you should? I think it does have an impact because you are joining a community of people. I don't watch any TV. I don't watch, I don't play any video games. I do go out to eat, so I don't know if the companies are Christian. I have this podcast. This is me Like. The podcast, for me, is my way of right now, is trying to impact and spread the word by having conversations with, first of all, different people, cause I've had Ricky on here and I don't ever talk to Ricky, so it's interesting to have people that I don't normally talk with and have them on. And then I post that conversation onto Spotify and YouTube and I post little short reels and stuff on Instagram and Facebook, tiktok. So that's my way right now of impacting Michigan, grand Rapids, but I'm not actually going out evangelizing, if that's what you're asking.
Speaker 2:No, I wasn't really asking that. I was just saying what do you do? Because I feel like if a person is listening to this and they're relating to it and they're like hmm, I'm actually not doing anything to impact my community. I guess, what would you say that they could do? What's something simple that they could start doing?
Speaker 3:Volunteer. You don't necessarily have to volunteer at church. It could be a soup kitchen, it could be meals on wheels, salvation army uh, donate. You could donate your clothes to goodwill. Donate your clothes to salvation army as well, you can. I mean you could go around and evangelize, but nobody who's not doing anything is going to want to jump up and go evangelize right away do you think donating brings the kingdom of god?
Speaker 3:no but I think it's a start of if you're not, if like what you said, if you're doing nothing and you hear this and you're wondering what you can do to impact, I think that's a start. You could do something like that. But why you this and you're wondering what you can do to impact? I think that's a start. You could do something like that. But, you're not spreading the gospel doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, If you wanted to go around to homeless people yourself and hand them clothing and then preach the gospel while you're doing that. I don't even think I know that would have some impact on people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think for a lot of people, the gospel evangelism is a scary thing to do for two reasons, and I speak from experience. The first one is rejection. What are they going to say? What are they going to think about me? What if I look weird? Yeah, well, will I look weird? Um, what if someone I know is around and they hear me? Um, so rejection. There's fear, um. And the second thing that I would say is many times people actually don't know the gospel.
Speaker 2:When I started evangelizing with groups, it was really weird to me because at that point I've already been walking with God, I already pray daily and worship and let go of most of strongholds that have been attached in my life.
Speaker 2:And one of the first things that they did was actually I'll share two things. First thing that they did was we're going to worship God, not just because it's a thing you do, it's because he is worthy and because we are thankful. So we're thanking him for these things, and worship was dope. And then the second thing once we got done with that moment, they gathered us all in a circle and they were just like, okay, we're going to go over the gospel. And then they would pick a random person hey, do you want to hop in and share the gospel? And everyone's getting hype and stuff like that, and I was too. But really deep, deep down I'm like my first thought was why are they doing this? We all know it. But then, as I was listening to that person preach the gospel, I realized I'm like, oh, I actually never knew the gospel the way I should have yeah um.
Speaker 2:So if you find yourself in this place of, oh I'm, I'm not doing anything. I need to start doing something. I'm sick and tired of just watching my friends drown, start first with yourself. I would say that Do you actually know the gospel? Has it become real to you? Because I think Michigan, specifically, I think we have lacked a revelation of the gospel. It's one thing to know about it, it's another thing to truly know it. Let's say your dad dies for you. Would you be affected by it? Yeah, would you cry? Yeah, I would too. If my dad died, let's say it was your friend. Let's say I died for you, would you be affected? I'd celebrate.
Speaker 2:Because I'm going to heaven and it's just like put somebody that you love in the shoes of Jesus. Rewind, go through the whole movie. He lives a life that is honoring to everybody, right, he loves everybody. And then he chooses to die for you. I'm not even bringing God the Father, I'm just saying he's a good person, he doesn't do anything, any wrongs against anyone. And then there's a moment where he actually says you know what? I'm going to lose my life so you can have yours. He dies and that's it. I'm not even going to say he comes back or anything like that. You would be affected if you love that person and I can guarantee you, dude, there's. So I would say 80% of us have not wept of Jesus, about Jesus dying for us.
Speaker 2:I spent four years thinking I knew the gospel, but once I actually had that real moment that Jesus really did die for me and I was actually affected and moved by that, things started to change for me. And I'm not saying be a crybaby, right, right, but I'm saying, once you really get a grasp of what's actually happening, it changes you. It just does From the inside. From the inside, yeah, it changes you. It just does From the inside. From the inside, yeah. And there's times where and I'm not saying sob, like oh man, I shed a tear. Was that enough? No, like you'll know when you know.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what we really need is for us to really see the gospel for what it is, that it's not just a story that we heard thousands of times growing up because we went to church. Church is good. It also can make us dull. Something that I had to get rid of was all head knowledge that I had because I was so caught up in my own mind. I'm just like, oh, I know that story. People would try to you know, speak wisdom to me and I would just block it off because I would kind of know the rest of the story of Jonah or something like that or David or all these other leaders that we look up to in the Bible, and I would basically just cut off any sort of wisdom that they were trying to pour into me.
Speaker 2:And in the same way I was doing that with the gospel People friends, close friends would preach the gospel to me and I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah, he dies and he comes back three days later. We're good, I know the gospel. What.
Speaker 3:How are you not?
Speaker 2:moved by that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think we talked about that, did we On our first episode. No, it's fine to be brought back up, I think that's cool, but, like, until that story becomes real, it's just not going to have an effect on you. Yeah, because otherwise it's just a story, just like David and Goliath is just a story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say before Jesus wants to save others in your life, he wants to save you. So if you don't know if you're being saved, guess what he wants relationship with you. And then he wants to use you. That's typically how God works he uses his people. So if you're not sure, if you're part of his people, open yourself up. Open up your heart. Yeah, I would say that's punchline there. I mean, it's pretty much it.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, you have anything else to say, or you want to end here?
Speaker 2:No, let's keep going. All right, that was good, though. Yeah, you want to end here? Nah, let's keep going. All right, that was good, though. Um, yeah, so I think I think that's a good um observation to to keep in mind. It's like okay, what? The realness? The realness and the and am I saved? Yeah, because if you don't know if you're saved, don't worry about going to the nations, don't worry about going to the neighborhoods, don't worry about going to the homeless. Get yourself in that place of meeting with God and allow him to do his thing, because, ultimately, it's not our words that save people.
Speaker 3:It's the truth that sets people free.
Speaker 2:And don't rush it either.
Speaker 3:Don't rush it. No, it comes in with time, and sometimes it's very sudden other times, yeah, but there's been in my experience when the people that come into the church and they're really excited they just got saved. They're like what they call on fire for Christ and they share their testimony with everybody. They're gone with a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:You never hear from them again.
Speaker 3:Why, I don't know. I think it's because they're what is it? The parable of the seeds. It's like so there's a seed that grows in the soil and that's the one you want to be. There's the seed that's on the rock, where it sprouts really fast because they were excited about the word, but when real suffering came, they wilt and they falter because they're not actually rooted in anything. I think that's what he's talking about in that specific parable, because when it's tossed on the rocks it's like yeah, those plants get the sunlight and the water right away, so they sprout, but there's nothing that roots them. And so the excitement of the word and being a Christian in this new thing is awesome.
Speaker 3:But then realness comes in and then they abandon it. I would say that could be some yeah, I'm not saying it's like every single time it's suddenly, but I'm just saying like, be careful of that if you're.
Speaker 2:So if it's a little fire, in order for a fire to be kept, it needs to have the right. What's the word? Kindling, yeah, so there's kindling. What kinds right? Yeah, there's bark. You can use leaves. You can use little sticks. Yeah, like the branches and stuff. And the way I see it, I see it from your perspective, I agree. And then I would say there is another side to it. It's not much of the person, it's more of the community, where they don't know how to keep a flame and then they leave.
Speaker 2:Why? Because they don't know how to keep the flame, and I think that's a huge responsibility that many times even I have lacked in. Where you know, people come in, they encounter a living God and they go to church and they're like why isn't everyone seeing what I'm seeing? And then they leave. So it could be that they're done with Christianity. It could be that they go look for the real thing, but ultimately, like everyone's looking for that and I'm sure I've talked about this before Just like today, everyone's looking for the real thing and they're scrambling everywhere. Am I gay? Am I this? Am I that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're looking for their identity and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just like if you think you found it and you go to this community where they say that they have also found it and it's completely different from what you've experienced, what does that tell you that it's not?
Speaker 3:real. You've experienced. What does that tell you that it's not real? Yeah, I think a lot of times congregations, individuals, pastors, doesn't matter. They get complacent and complacency kills. And so if you're not constantly pursuing the Lord and growing in your relationship with Jesus, first of all it is going to come, become dull to you and then you're going to give off that when you're with somebody else, like, yeah, you're saved, but right now you're, it's dull and so it's not changing lives like it's supposed to. Yeah, but how do you keep that Like, how do you continue to grow and keep that excitement? Because it's just like any relationship right when you go through there's like a honeymoon phase and then all of a sudden but there is couples who more or less stay in that honeymoon phase almost their entire marriage Like it's possible oh, yeah, I'm planning on it.
Speaker 2:Love you babe. Um, no, dude, yeah, I would say um, how do you keep it? First, find the person that, like speaking from the perspective of a person who just came to know the Lord, find the weird one. And can I say names or no? Should I not say names? You can say names, okay, and he knows this. When I first became a Christian, I didn't really think about it this way, the way I'm suggesting it, but I want to give you an example, would you?
Speaker 3:say that Jared's a man of God. Yeah, but I don't agree. You know, I don't agree with a lot of Res. Life theology yeah.
Speaker 2:But would you say that he is a man that's pursuing God's heart? Yes, okay. So when I first came to church, the first person I saw was Jared and I was like what the heck is going on with this dude? I've told him face to face so he knows, and I didn't really like him for whatever reason. But as I've grown and as I've walked with Jesus, I've realized Jared is someone who sharpens. Jared is someone who's not afraid to say the things that I need to hear. This dude and I have had wild conversations, conversations of revelation, conversations of correction and accountability, and this dude has been a solid friend of mine for the last three, four years now.
Speaker 2:So when I say find the weird one, it's not because, again, it's kind of joking, but they tend to be the wild ones, the ones who are really willing to do anything for Jesus. We're talking about passivity, we're talking about complacency. If you see that in a person, they're probably not it and that's okay. You know, I'm hoping that these people find the Lord as well. But the reason why you would want to get connected with them is because, hopefully, there is this natural invitation from them to you to allow you to experience what they experience how they do it. So one thing that I struggled with is how do I keep that flame? I had that same dilemma in my life. I didn't know how to read the Bible effectively. I can read through the whole entire people. There's so many people historians that have read the Bible and they've missed it. There are the Pharisees, pastors in today's world that knew it like the back of their hand, yet they missed Jesus. Why?
Speaker 3:I don't know, probably because he offers relationship instead of just. I mean, I don't like the people who are like it's not about a set of rules, because there is a set of rules, I would say it's culture. They missed it because of culture.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not saying they missed it because of culture you applied today right Rules. Okay, I'm applying to today too. I don't really think of it as rules, I think of it as culture.
Speaker 3:What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:what do you mean by that? Um, the first thing I think of, um, as a guatemalan, I love beans. That's a thing that I would eat morning and dinner, and during lunch that's when I would have like meats, chicken, whatever. When have you had black beans for breakfast? Never. When have you had black beans for dinner with bread? Just that, never. Yeah, it's good, try it. I'll give you the recipe later. So that's a cultural difference, right? Yeah, okay, I'm not even going to go down towards race or whatever. It's just a cultural thing.
Speaker 2:You go from a Michigander breakfast and you compare that to a Texan breakfast. It's just a cultural thing. You go from a Michigander breakfast and you compare that to a Texan breakfast. It's different. It's always going to be different.
Speaker 2:So, in the same way, we think of kingdoms, there's a kingdom of God, there's a kingdom of the enemy and there is a culture. There is a culture For me. I don't cuss why, because the culture that I'm a part of in God's kingdom, it all encompasses into holiness and righteousness. What are some practical ways for me to live in that? By guarding my the thoughts, being Guarding the thoughts, being mindful of what I say and how I say it, because you can go around and speak truth, but if you don't speak it, keeping in mind how they will receive it, it probably won't be effective. I can say one thing to you very bluntly because you are a very direct person, but if I go to one of our other friends who are not very direct, I'll have to explain the same thing in a more gentle way for them to understand, right, yeah? So in the same way, when it comes to speaking, I don't use foul language, right, curse words. I don't use foul language.
Speaker 2:Right, curse words. But if you compare that to the world, the secular world, the kingdom of the enemy, what do they tend to use? Cuss words Almost for everything now. Yeah, back then it was just for anger. Now you watch bad boys or whatever, and they're cussing every other thing. I actually haven't seen bad boys, so I wouldn't know. Um, but essentially it's that. Um, it's a culture thing, it's not? Oops, I said a bad word. I guess I'm gonna have to pay for it later. Um, so that's just talking about language. Um, why do I not have sex out of marriage? Right, right For me. The way I see it is, my father has made this designed with something else and I'm not experiencing it. I'm not experiencing the fullness of it. So are you going to eat a raw chicken?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Why? Because it needs to be cooked first. Right, yeah, you want to put some seasoning, and this is a weird analogy, but essentially the marriage is the cooking and the preparing of the chicken to then be able to enjoy it. Because what happens if you eat the chicken raw? You get salmonella, exactly. You don't want that. So if you have, sex before marriage.
Speaker 2:You're getting salmonella, yeah, and it's just like, honestly, that's it's a funny way to think about it, but that's actually it, because it, sex, is sex, don't get me wrong. Right, but if you don't do it the way it was designed to be done, you won't benefit from it. You will only experience the things that have the complete opposite of what God's original design was for it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, people, that's another thing that I think should be taught more is what happens with sin and why God's laws exist is what I'm trying to say, because a lot of times we think of it as oh, this law exists, we abide by it and we love jesus and we go to heaven. Well, why? Right, but there's so much more given in those laws, cause I've been thinking about it a lot lately, since the Olympics did that thing with the last supper. They mocked it, whatever.
Speaker 2:Was that the Olympic? Thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, and one of the commands is no graven images, like don't, don't make pictures of Jesus. Of course it's in the old Testament, so some people don't abide by it, but I've I've really been thinking about, like why would God not want us to draw pictures of Jesus? And there's several reasons. First of all, we fight about what race Jesus was, as if it actually matters.
Speaker 2:If you're fighting over it, get over it.
Speaker 3:I'm saying like Christians do like this yeah.
Speaker 3:Progressive Christians versus these christians. They say he was this, they say he was. Then, at the end of the day, he died for humankind. If he was the same race as you, that doesn't give you any more validation. Yeah, but we wouldn't be fighting about this if people never drew a picture of him. Yeah, and they wouldn't be able to make fun of that painting or anything if there was never any pictures. So I'm saying, when we look, think of god's law. There's more to it than just, oh, god doesn't want us to do it because it's bad when you think of sex before marriage.
Speaker 3:Why is that bad to have sex before marriage? What? What's? One reason.
Speaker 2:Are you asking me? Yeah, I'm asking you what's one reason? Yeah, what's just one reason Emotional ties.
Speaker 3:Yep, that's one. You form a bond with that person that is extremely hard to break. Another reason STDs yeah. If you have sex with multiple people out, it's yeah. Obviously you're not waiting till marriage. It's like that can happen. So there's multiple. I mean, that's just two, but those are big reasons.
Speaker 2:They're huge, yeah, spiritual and practical. Um, for those of you that argue we're the little things, I get it let's you know. Obviously we want to follow the real thing, but I think when it comes to Jesus's race black, white, arab, hispanic, I don't care Does it change what he did? That's what I'm saying, I know and this is where I get to, and I keep bringing this up in pretty much every conversation I have. Oops, john 17, verse 20.
Speaker 2:My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me. That they may be one as we are one, I in them and you in me, so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them, even as you have loved me. So essentially, what he's saying is his prayer for the lost is that we would be or sorry. His prayer for believers is that they would be unified so that the world would come to know him.
Speaker 2:So, when we're arguing over a bunch of things that, honestly, don't really matter that much, what do we look like to the world? Do we look unified or do we look divided? Right, I had this conversation. There's a few black Israelites here in Grand Rapids and I got the chance to talk to a few of them. Um, you know, they go out downtown, they're mic and everything and they basically preach to white people that they're going to hell because they're white. Nice, I'll just leave it at that. There's more to it. We'll just.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's black, israel, hebrew nationals or something like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:anyways, what drew me to them is the fact that others were coming and they're like all the bibles written by white people and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like and it's funny because I actually knew this guy and the guy that said that- yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like dude, why are you saying that? And I came, I was like yo, what's up? Blah, blah, blah, talk to him. And I just stood there and I was praying like do you want me to say anything, lord? Do you want me to walk away? Because I knew by me standing there, it naturally just draws more people, right, if you're walking randomly and you see a huge crowd, what are you going to do? You're probably going to look you might join, and this is downtown. There's a bunch of restaurants, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And I felt kind of like a nudge for me to say something. And I brought the scripture up because they were reading from the Bible oh, you think it's written by a white person. What does this say? And they brought their KJV and everything and they would start blaring out random scripture, keeping it out of context. And then they noticed me and I was with my friend Dan and they were like what do you think? And we just said, hey, we're not really here for the next YouTube short or whatever, um, tiktok, whatever you guys are doing, because they were recording and everything oh yeah that's annoying.
Speaker 2:Um, I was like dude, if you want to have a conversation, it's funny. Uh, let's not record it and just talk and yeah we're recording it, yeah um, and they're like, oh why, I'm just like dude, what's, what's the point of it?
Speaker 2:it's just like let's just talk right and the guy, one of the guys of the two that had mics. They're like, yeah, you're right, all right, fine. So I pulled him to a side and I read him. I told him hey, you read this, because this is the guy that was reading out the art thou things. And, um, he started reading it and I'm just like, okay, what did you get from the scripture? The?
Speaker 2:one, I just read and he was just like uh, that that the body would be unified. Like yeah, don't you agree with that? He's like, yes, okay, do you see any? Any reaction that haps that happens to the unifying body? They're like, yeah, can you tell me what it is he? And he tells me the loss would would come to know Jesus through the unified body. Like perfect, I'm glad you recognize that. And then I asked him I was like dude, what do you think is happening here? Do you think that we?
Speaker 2:Do you think this guy, the guy that's talking to you about the Bible being written by a white man, do you think that dude's a Christian? He's like yeah. I was like I don't care if you think he's going to heaven or hell. I'm asking you do you think he believes in God? God, yes, the same god that you believe in? Yes, okay. And I asked him are you guys unified? No, what's the point of this conversation? And he couldn't answer that. And what I went on to say is we have the power to make a public spectacle of the devil, but we actually have the power to make a public spectacle of god as well. Um, and what you guys are doing is you guys are embarrassing him, embarrassing who god?
Speaker 2:god yeah because there's a. I was like look behind you, dude. There was so many people having dinner at ucellos and they look across the street and all they see is a bunch of people arguing and they call themselves christians yeah what do you think that tells them?
Speaker 2:uh, a bunch of lunatics. Uh, they don't know. They even they don't know what I believe in and they call themselves the same thing. How is that unifying? How is that drawing them? How is that inviting? How is that loving? How does that show anything about who jesus really is? It doesn't so what. I encouraged him. I was like dude, if you really believe these things, fine brothers, fine, go talk to people. You don't need to have a mic to be able to share your opinion. Do I have one in front of me right now? Yes, but at the moment I don't need it. Right, I can have a normal conversation and be civil rather than having to argue and yell. Try to be right, you know. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Because, at the end of the day, what they want is truth and what I want is truth. So just because I said it doesn't mean it is I go to scripture. So if they think that what they're doing is correct, does it line up with scripture?
Speaker 3:no, it doesn't. So do they read the same bible they? Do, but they just don't understand it and from this conversation that you had with them, did they walk away, changed?
Speaker 2:I think he did I don't think the other people did, because there was like 12 of them.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. I didn't know that they were in.
Speaker 2:Grand Rapids. Oh yeah, I've had several conversations with them Whereabouts Downtown, downtown Rosa Parks.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they're there every Friday. So if you ever go, love them please. We're not here to argue.
Speaker 3:No, I'm here to argue, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, paul talks about arguing for the gospel. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't stand for truth. Stand for truth, yeah. But there's a way to do it. There's a way to do it, and it's all done through love and grace, because they truly believe that they're right with God and they might be. It's just the way that they're communicating that to others is not glorifying, so yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, it is getting late, sweet, and we still have a little bit of time before you leave for Texas, so I'm guessing you'll be on one last time after this. But thanks again for coming on.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next time.
Speaker 3:Yeah and sorry everybody, I was on five hours of sleep, so if you saw me yawning. That's why was I was also bored with what Luigi was saying.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about something more boring next time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, All right, sounds good, sweet. Thanks for listening to everybody and have a blessed week. We're out.