008: What Is Worship? With Luiggi Lopez

I sit down and talk with my friend Luggi about how worship should be and how it is we should preach the Gospel. 

Transcript

  . Welcome back everybody to the podcast. We have a guest, Luigi.

, says here on my notes that. You're looking to get married, but you're afraid the girls aren't going to like you because you wear 

glasses. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. So, maybe contacts. In the future, get some 

contacts. Okay,  introduce yourself a little bit. Tell people who you are, what you 

do.

Yeah, I'm Luigi. I'm a friend of Caleb's. We've been friends for Four years. Four years. Four years. We lived together. That was fun. It was.  If you guys know Ethan, he was with us too and that was  fun as well. got to really be exposed to  different lifestyles of what it looks like to be a man, but even to just like, honestly, what it looked like following God in different ways. 

Actually, let's put the headphones 

on. It might work better. , do those ones. Sweet.  That way you can, , hear your voice and then it takes away all the noise from the outside. Gotcha.  

This is better. Yeah, see what I mean? 

Yeah. Okay.  And you worship lead at a Reformed church. Yes. And you're, what kind of worship leader would you say you are, that you started off as?

Charismatic.  Because it's definitely not reformed, right? You're 

a little bit Are you talking about like how did I start at that church or somewhere else? Or is this like the beginning of leading worship? What 

is your worship background? That would be a better question. 

Probably charismatic, yeah.  And so how 

has that 

difference been for you?

It's been,  honestly, it's been easy. I would say you can quickly  get into this mindset of , Oh, people, there's only one form of worship and you have to get people on the train that you're in. And really, I would say that the Lord's been kind of refining me in, how worship looks different for everyone else.

sometimes it's very, I would say very physical, in postures. So you see in Psalms, there's Quite a few different places where you see David, like getting on his face. He's, they would say that he'd be postured before the Lord. there'd be other times where, he would be on his knees. So all that to say is it's been really interesting.

Seeing the people in that church  engage in that, but at the same time, not, it can be a vocal thing where they all sing along, but yeah, they can also just be with their arms crossed too. So, 

what was I going to ask?  Is there a way that the form of worship can ever go too far, such as, I mean, there's dancing, which is okay, clapping, but is there anywhere where we should draw the line? 

I would say if it's not,  it all depends on your heart posture. So if you're doing these things, if I'm singing just because I have a good voice, which I would argue it's decent, I would say don't do it at all. If, if I'm playing my guitar, because I know I'm good at it. And that's it. And I'm not actually doing it for the Lord.

It's not worship at all then. I would say that's the line. Is it for the Lord? when it comes to like, the, we go to the extremes of  charismatic communities. the way, the dancing and the flag waving and stuff. Jumping. Jumping, yeah. doing mosh pits sometimes. I've seen that. I would say like, again, if their heart posture is, I'm just doing it for the hype of it,  probably check yourself.

But if it's like, this is how I'm worshiping my God right now, go for it. I don't care. I would say that the 

majority of people though, do it for the hype.  Cause I remember, I mean, most people that I've talked to are always like, Ah, there weren't any hype songs this time. Yeah. And they're actually upset. And so I think that uh, overall it can be  Damaging or take away from the worship itself.

Yeah. Where we're almost starting to worship the worship instead of the one we're 

supposed to be worshiping. Yeah, and even with that comment, right? Like, oh, there wasn't any hype songs. Yeah. Dude, that's, that's a major flag right there. Cause it's, like what you were saying, it's not about what songs we play.

Whether if it's on,  the local radio, Christian channel or whatever. it's just like when, when we step into that atmosphere, this is the question I would ask them. Are you ministering to God or are you just singing another song? and you think of like the blessing, I'm sorry for when I sing another song.

Like that's actually really true though. How many times have we stepped into that where it's just Christian karaoke? What's the difference in between actual, musical worship and Christian karaoke? It's the heart posture. It's where you're focusing on. Yeah. How do we 

avoid that though? How do we teach people that without coming off as,  not judgmental, but 

I would say it depends.

what communities you're in. So if this is like a congregate, sorry, congregational, community, let's say in the atmosphere of a church,  I wouldn't really think of it more as a  discipline kind of thing. I would say have it be more of an encouragement and dive into scripture on what that looks like.

I'm not saying Hey, don't talk about it. I think it's necessary. And I think there should be messages on what it looks like to minister to God. We, going down that vein, we hear words like reverence,  like what does it mean to revere God? Yeah. And as a Christian, you're just like, Oh, I, I know what it is because that's just the Christian lingo.

and I think it's important that, you know, whether you're the pastor or worship leader, a volunteer even, to shed light into that, cause it's super necessary. Otherwise it's just Christian Yeah. So, and I will say too, just like if it's a smaller community, cause I know that like. Where we're at.

There's a lot of house churches. I think right there like by all means  Go for it. Be unafraid to be direct the reason why I would say I give two different answers depending on like the Community is because in the larger community don't they don't really know you. Yeah, it's not it's less personal.

Yeah Whereas like if you have your best friend who's just like Caleb, dude, I love you. But geez those shorts are ugly  Like, okay, one, you'll find it kind of funny, but then you would, since you value his words. Yeah. 

And we have that 

connection established. Exactly. You'll be like, Hmm, maybe he has a point.

Maybe they're too tight or they're too baggy. I don't know. It's just like a random example. And when you put that into the context of following Christ, it's that heart check, like saying, Hey, Caleb, are you actually doing these things for the right reason? Is this actually biblical worship? yeah, 

that's a good call.

I didn't realize that there was a lot of church homes 

around where we live. It's been growing. Yeah. I have quite a few friends who have  really been stepping into discipleship, which I would say even applies into this conversation. So it's been interesting. Yeah. 

Why do you think that home churches are growing  here?

And we're from West Michigan. Yeah. Those who don't know 

in West Michigan. Yeah. I would say. They, just biblical context, we think of first Corinthians where Paul addresses the church. And he talks about how in the body, there are different parts, right? That the hand can't function without the eyes, eyes, without the feet, that kind of thing.

And having that, mentality where there are specific things that only a certain part can do. For example, my eyes can't grab a cup of coffee. My hands do. with the church, there is a sense of. there is a sense of like, come as you are, we will walk with you in that shepherding message. but  sometimes I think we kind of miss the point in discipleship.

So one thing that I've been really leaning into, has been in Matthew 10. I wish I brought my Bible or whatever. I have one. Um, sure. Let's bring it up. there you go, boy. Yeah. The big dog. Pretty easy. Jesus for this thing.  it's in Matthew 10. we hear this, this message. Matthew 10 is 

gonna be the  

I'm getting there.

Around there. Yeah, I'm in Matthew right now. This thing's huge. What is this? A study Bible? Yeah. Sick. so many times we hear this message of just like, go heal the sick and all these other things and  that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. but there's a specific part. Where I feel like it's really easy for us to miss it.

So in verse eight, it says, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons you received without paying, give without pay. you fast forward. and it says, and whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart as you enter the house, greet it.

And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it.  You can read the rest if you want. but what I really want to hone in on is, In verse 11, it says, whatever town you enter or village, find out who is worthy and stay there with that person. and then other, translations, it says until you're done. 

So we think about that in the context of community. sometimes, or let me rephrase that actually. Uh, when we put that into today, I would say that is leaning heavily on discipleship.  Which is, programs and all these things and, and, you know, megachurches and the local churches, and that's great.

there's a lot of movement happening there, but to a certain extent, the personalities, the, the friendships that are, developed in those, places sometimes, don't go as far as they need to,  or don't dive deep because it's just like, well, we just go to church together. but I mean, you look at the disciples that were following Jesus, they did everything together.

Literally everything. They shared food. You look at, the community in Acts, they, I think it's like kibbutz or something. I've kind of been diving into it.  A friend's dad of mine kind of taught me about it, but basically what that means is they would gather all of their food, all of the men's clothes, all of the women's clothes, and they would share it.

And that was it. all of their investments, all of their money, they would all put it in one table and say, this is all ours. with that being said, I think that what the house churches have really been pressing into is that discipleship, friends become brothers.  You know, and I feel like that's a hard thing for, us to actually get into.

I honestly don't think I have had a friend where it's been like maybe one or two I can think of where it's been like, Oh, this dude's, an acquaintance. There's friends in them. When I think of this person, I'm just like, this is my brother. I would say that. 

I would say too that,  excuse me, that especially around here because we have two pretty big megachurches that I know of.

Yeah.  And I think most people only really know about megachurches. Yeah. And anything they do know about small churches or think they know is that they're really judgmental and they're super strict and scary.  When in reality that's not true because I've been going to a small Baptist church and sometimes they play at your small church.

And I haven't felt disowned or anything walking in there. But I don't think people know that in megachurches no matter I have my own problem with megachurches but that's a topic for a different day.  They, even if they are completely solid  They can't have the same community that you get going to a very small church or a home church Yeah, and because most people don't know what a small church is like they say hey, let's start a home church Yes, we all know each other.

We might as well start that Yeah, so you have this community because in the church that I go to now the pastor knows everybody. Mm hmm He knows where people sit During the sermon, he's out front greeting. There's only one door to walk in, in the front.  And even when somebody passes away, he tells a story of that person.

And he'll even say, I remember them sitting right there. There's that sense of community. But I don't think a lot of people know about that because they're so used to mega churches. Because online, when you look up a sermon, what are you getting? A mega church sermon. 

I would say that's been a huge plus, specifically, I haven't really gone to a lot of  some other small churches.

It's been every now and then. Yeah. but one thing I have noticed is, and this is just in general. there's been passivity and complacency, and it can be minuscule where it's just like, Oh, this was, a little soft 

passivity and complacency in which 

way, referring to scripture. And I've seen people teach these sermons and they're great.

They're packed with wisdom,  but it's, it's almost as if it was historical wisdom. you asked me about, the history of the United States, I honestly can't tell you anything about it. And it's like that, you know, you're like in history class, Oh, this is cool. This is what our third president did.

but when I go home after, when I was in high school, after history class, I'd forget all about it. Yeah. And it was just like, great, this has nothing to do with me. But the reality is this Bible is the only thing that reads us as we read it and it's the only thing that Actually would apply to your life in every single aspect, yeah, so I would say that There's been like a lack of Calling people deeper into it And then you even think about that in in the context of why house churches I would say that's probably one of the reasons too The lost, we think of the lost as well.

It's, they're all, we're all searching for something, which is the truth. and when I say the truth, everyone nowadays has like, Oh, your truth is yours and mine is mine. And there's a whole bunch of truths and all these other things. Yeah. And, we can take that down a really nasty way.

It was just like, Oh, here we go again with them. But the reality is they do have a point is. They are looking for the truth, and that's something that I can agree with them on. now whether it's their lifestyle, that's a whole different, conversation as well. but what I would hone in on is, I would say even in the house church, I'm not getting what I know I need in, by these leaders in megachurches and local churches and all these other things.

I'm just going to go straight to the source. and grab two or three brothers of mine and just go in. And I would say that would be more effective because one, the three would be reading the scripture as it is, and it's not this, here is my opinion on this scripture. Cause as you know, we can take scripture out of context easily.

Yeah. Most people nowadays, it seems like they're using the Bible to support their message instead of the Bible just being their message. Yeah. I think that's 

problematic. Yeah. I would say it can be problematic. So I think that if there's like a revelation, for example, gratitude, we think of thankfulness.

it's mentioned many times, both in the old and new Testament of, giving, praising thanksgiving to the Lord. I would say that's, and if I were to preach and I'm just like, guys say we're gonna be talking about Thanksgiving and why it's so important, I wouldn't say that that's problematic to bring up scripture that would fortify that revelation.

But if it's this political thing where it's like you got to vote for whatever, you know, that that's totally different. Yeah, so if there's if there is no revelation behind what you are preaching or behind a topic then yeah, I would agree with you on that. 

I don't mind if they do that if they're staying in one passage.

say it's about gratitude, like you said, and they're not taking verses from everywhere to just, and jumbling them all together. Because what the, what I've been, the church I've been going to now is, he kind of does a mixture of both. So, we've been in Luke the entire time I've been at this church. I've been there for almost a year.

And he'll be in Luke 23 for weeks. Dang. But there, each section that he goes through in Luke will have somewhat of a message. Mm. Titled something. Yeah. Such as what it, what it costs to carry a cross might be one of the messages. Dang. And then he'll take it out of that specific passage. He'll go and do cross references, which I think is fine.

Yeah. But I don't like when it's this random message and they're just pulling little bits and pieces out of everywhere and jumping around. I just want to stay where we're at in the Bible and read and really study that part and really get to know that 

section. Yeah, I would say that that's actually really good.

the church I'm at is there. They changed it a little bit during this season, but last year, 2023, it was all Genesis. Which was pretty interesting because like how many times have you read Genesis? It's like I'm gonna read the Bible the whole entire Bible this time and you start in Genesis because it's the first book and then you life happens and you end up getting distracted and you want to do with all these other things And all that to say is it's like the first 15 chapters of Genesis is the whole Bible is but specifically Genesis is so packed to the point where I I actually missed so much of it The patterns, the way that, it was, written too.

And I think that's been really cool to make observations of, how poetic it's been, of how you find Jesus in it and all these other things. So that's been pretty cool. I would, I would agree. I think people should do that more often. and then with like the cross references, I don't mind it. I think, I think we, we all have.

A certain level of discernment and we can tell, when someone's lying to you, either you're gullible. If you're not gullible, you can tell when someone's lying. And I would say that applies into this context of preaching and all these things. Because if someone starts throwing out a bunch of scripture and it's just like first Peter, Romans, you know, you go to Exodus and all these other things.

And it's just like. Cool. What does any of this have to do with what you're trying to say? And sometimes you can kind of feel like they're just throwing things at you. Yeah. And it just confuses you. That's what I mean. 

It feels like it's just 

filler stuff. Yeah. but if there's a point to it, then go for it by all means.

But if it's just to try to. Say I know the Bible then, and it goes back to what I was talking about with worship our posture Yeah, 

I become the more of a pride thing. Mm hmm just to show you hey, I know all of this Yeah, and then I didn't but then I didn't learn anything. 

Yeah,  and I think it's so interesting like the more I was super prideful when, when I actually started getting into walking with God, I'm just like, I had to know it all.

People would say, dude, what has the Lord been revealing to you? And I would lie.  I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'd be like, oh my gosh, yeah, this, this, and this. How could you? I know, right? Yeah. And it's like, what is wrong with saying nothing when that's actually it? Sometimes. That was always my answer when I was on the worship team.

They would always ask me,  

what's God saying to you or something, and it would either be nothing or I would say something just so basic. 

Yeah. if you have it, dude, share it, but if you don't,  what's the point to lie about it? You know? I bet people could tell 

that you were lying. I could always tell when people were just trying to say something.

Yeah, it's 

sad. Sometimes I'd be like, oh my gosh, yeah, words can't even explain it, man. And I was just like, uh, that's a lie.  I repented for that. We're good. But,  yeah. I honestly lost my train of thought there. 

We were on you hearing from God, lying about it. 

Before that. Before that? We  

were talking about Bible preaching.

Yeah. And actually knowing 

about pride. You were prideful. Pride, yeah. And yeah, I would,  I'm getting it back. that's leading on to humility.  And once I actually learned, I wouldn't say I haven't figured out, but once I started taking steps into more of a posture of humility, you start to see actually scripture come alive. 

And what I've noticed is like in Paul, when Paul, he's such an amazing dude. he talks about judging. And it's like, judge, but then he says, but don't judge. And it's this weird thing where it's like, do it, but don't do it. And I would say that there is a balance into it. Yeah. 

You start to learn because there's, you know, there's secular people that are always quoting that thou shall not judge.

And every time you say something, but then there's other people that say, yes, you should, but there is a 

balance. There is totally a balance. And  again, hard posture, man. I can't get it. I can't say that enough, because it's just like, if I'm just pointing the finger at you and like, Caleb, you're, you did this, and this is bad, but there's no calling higher.

There's no, sense of dude, let's walk through this together and get out of it, whether it be sin, lies, or whatever. I wouldn't say, I would say don't do it, dude. If you're not willing to walk with the person, I would say it's not your place. There's someone that's ready for it. To walk with them and specifically like being under leadership.

That's been a really tricky part. You start to see Pharisees come alive in your, in your own life. Someone once said that the more,  as you begin to meditate in the word, so putting yourself in the context of scripture, and then once you start to contemplate. Which is applying scripture into your life and putting scripture in your own life.

You start to see it come more alive. So  with that being said, you know, over the last few years,  I've been really diving deep into that. And I start to see Pharisees in and those are pastors. Those are worship leaders. Those are volunteers. Those are leaders that we typically norm normally look up to, you know, and It starts to make sense.

I'm like this dude says that  going back to the guy who just threw a bunch of scripture at you

It starts to show you like okay his partial his heart posture is off this dude's just saying that he knows it all, but the reality is the Pharisees who literally learned the entire Old Testament by the age of 12, because that's how old they were, when they had it memorized, who are now in their 30s, 40s, 50s, God, they didn't realize that Jesus was in front of them, that the Messiah had come.

when I think of that, and I compare that to a local pastor who's probably doesn't have it memorized, it just puts something there and it's like, man, what would it look like for them to humble themselves? And then you look at Paul, going back to Paul again, he says, I am the most accomplished.

if anyone has bragging rights, it's me. And he says, and I count that all as garbage. it's a sense of like, you literally have to get rid of yourself. Even the quote unquote, godly wisdom, biblical stuff. sometimes you have to erase that from your mind and allow God to. bring fresh revelation to it.

For example, the gospel, the gospel as Christians, we normally, I would say the majority would know what the gospel contains that there is a dude came, died, rose again.  I'm pretty sure people can say that.  No, he wasn't just a dude. He wasn't a dude. He was also dude and God. Yes, but also fully dude. Yes. Fully dude.

Fully God. Yeah. and that's people think of it as that's it. Yeah,  that's how I lived. I mean, I grew up in the church. I was born into the church, stayed there for like 19 years and then And you remained perfect all those years. Oh, yeah, every not one single year. There was never a moment where I was imperfect.

and yeah, it's just like  I always, quote unquote, knew what the gospel was, but then I actually had, once I started going through that humility process, I had to pretty much forget what I knew about the Bible already.  And basically, that just created an open slate where the Lord can begin to actually paint a picture of what it was and how it was for me.

since then, and this is a growing thing, I think you can never Graduate from learning the gospel. I think it has to be at the forefront. Otherwise, you know, you just become apathetic to it and that's not what we want. and you start to actually be moved by the way that Jesus actually, gave his life for me, for you.

And I think that's where things start to shift. Once you allow revelation to dive or to be married to the wisdom that God offers. That's when things start to shift in your life. 

I think also to add to that is when the gospel story becomes real, it  starts to shift in your life. Thank you. Shift your life.

Change your life. Whatever, however you want to say it. Yeah.  Because I grew up Christian  and it really wasn't until recent years that I really started to think  This is a real story. This actually happened. And Jesus is real. People actually wrote this Bible. Paul was going around. He was shipwrecked. He was killing Christians before all this.

And it's crazy to think about.  And until Jesus and his story becomes real,  I don't think there's any real change because most Christians, I don't want to say most Christians, I say that because I used to be that. Yeah, me too. Is you, you believe it and you've heard it and it's, okay, this is a story, but it's almost a dream.

Yeah. Or just a story. Mm hmm. But then recently it's like, wait a minute, this is  real. 

Yeah. Yeah. I would say even to add on that.  It's crazy how the life of Jesus is simple. there are some points where we can clearly, go to, him living a life we could not.  dying the death that he didn't deserve, coming back, so we know these things, right?

when we start to remove the details of his life, it becomes simple. One, two, three, he died, he came, he died, he rose again.  The three points and I think that when we dumb it down that way, it's so easy for us to check out,  you know We hear this this gospel message should be preached more than often  In churches because it is a message that we do need to hear and I think once we have heard it and we dumb it down that way the one two three and We hear a pastor talk about the life of Jesus and all of a sudden I've done this plenty of times I just check out and I'm on my phone Or I'm just looking at him and I'm like, I'm, I don't care what you're saying.

You know, it's like, can you do the prayer thing? And that's when things start to get complicated because it's so hard to snap out of it.  And that's why I say, I don't think it's there. We are designed to ever graduate or from learning what the gospel is. I think we should always remain in that posture of learning more of it, keeping it at the forefront. 

Yeah. Otherwise you stop growing. Yeah.  So,  

well, I think that's a perfect time to end. Sweet. Perfect point to end it on  everybody. Thank you for listening. And until next time, have a blessed week. Bye. I'm  not going to say bye. See 

ya.